The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The Old Testament clearly teaches the Trinity. The verse of Scripture that is probably the greatest doctrinal statement in the Old Testament is found in the Book of Deuteronomy:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
(Deuteronomy 6:4)

If you want a literal translation, it is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our plural God is one God!” The word one is echad, the same word used back in Genesis 2:24 when God said, concerning Adam and Eve, “And they shall become one flesh.” Two persons become one. In that mysterious relationship of marriage, two people are made one, which is evident always in the child. They shall be one flesh, though two—two in one. This is the word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 (my paraphrase), “Hear, O Israel: Elohim—our plural God, our Trinity, tri-personality—is one God!” The mysterious One, like Adam and Eve made one flesh, is three Persons in one. That is a wonderful truth and unfathomable by human reason.
Scripture, you see, teaches the Trinity. The Old Testament repeatedly declares the plurality of God. If you go back to the first chapter of Genesis, you will see this again:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
(Genesis 1:26–27)

Notice that God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” It is plural. Then in the eleventh chapter of Genesis, at the Tower of Babel, God said:

“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
(vv. 7–8)

We see here that the Lord scattered them, but He said, “Let Us go down.” The Trinity came down, but He is still one God.
Moving on in the Old Testament we find that Isaiah said:

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
(Isaiah 6:8)

Before this, Isaiah had gone into the temple and heard the seraphim saying, “Holy, holy, holy”—not twice, not four times, but three times. It was a praise to the triune God. Holy is the Father, holy is the Son, and holy is the Spirit.
In Ecclesiastes we read the familiar words, “Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth” (12:1). The word Creator is Boreacho, which means “Creators,” plural. “Remember now thy Creators, thy Trinity”—for the Trinity was involved in creation, as you well know. We are told that God the Father was the Creator, “In the beginning God created . . .” Both the Gospel of John (1:3) and the Epistle to the Colossians (1:16) tell us that the Lord Jesus Christ was the Creator. Also we are told that the Holy Spirit of God was the Creator: “The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2). Thus it is evident that the Trinity was involved in creation just as the Trinity is involved in redemption.

In the Old Testament, Israel witnessed to a polytheistic world—a civilization with many gods—concerning the unity of the Godhead. That was the mission of Israel in the ancient world. The mission of the church in this day is to a world not given to polytheism (the worship of many gods), but to atheism (the worship of no god). To our godless civilization we are to witness to the Trinity.

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If not, what right do they have to say God called them to preach lies (even though unintentional?)

Nate, the church of 1.

BigMack

[nate4one]

I'll agree with you on this, Nate. Church attendance is one way to engage in communal worship, but it is not the only way.

Exactly. And it is by no means a required way. God wants us to worship him. Too many Christians are worried about where the fannie is sitting and not where the heart is meditating.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I agree completely with this. Church attendence is only ONE WAY to worship, but it was commanded to be done.

Becky

[CindyDawg]

Hey,It's ok. It was meant to be funny. Yesterday I was mad. Today, my sense of humor is kicking in. Never would have thought the Lord used pit bulls though.

[nate4one]

So by obeying Gods command to attend a worship service is one form of worship.

You don't need to agree with my interpretation on the "gathering." However you have no right to add your own interpretation and legalize it like scripture that "worship service" equals church and therefore is required by God.

And I did answer your question. I can have over a few friends, where we worship together. We "gather." And it is concieveable that those gifts given to men by God, as listed in Titus and Timothy, are applical to daily living and simple gathered settings.
Not the modern day practice of speech giving.

Nate

[Quester]

God gave them a talent for public speaking, ...

Having a talent and a passion is too often reffered to as a "calling."

This is not what I am refering to ... Baptists, generally make a clear distinction between talents, gifts, and callings.

Many times, those who will claim such a calling ... will, obviously, also have no innate talent for public speaking (like Moses), and many, like Cindy has said ... will not have the resources to attend a seminary.

... that does not mean these men are called to preach "half truths" half of the time. Is anyone always right? If not, what right do they have to say God called them to preach lies (even though unintentional?)

It is clearly true that God has called preachers ... I thought that you were merely disputing the timing (pre-70 AD vs. post-70 AD).

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[nate4one]

Nate, the church of 1.

Suzie, Adam and Cassandra...4
Bible study group once in a while....14
Daily communication with fellow believers....3-5
Well, a gathering of 18-20 on any given day however it works out.

Oh yea, Christ in the middle..Unequalled.

Where 2 or more are gathered....Do not forsake the gathering...
Hmmm, I think Christ already gave us the number by which to judge gathering.

Nate

[nate4one]

Church attendence ....but it was commanded to be done.

You are lying. Gathering was commanded.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

If you want a literal translation, it is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our plural God is one God!” The word one is echad, the same word used back in Genesis 2:24 when God said, concerning Adam and Eve, “And they shall become one flesh.” Two persons become one.

Not that I'm disputing this or anything but how do you know in the Shema "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one God" that the "Lord our God" part is plural?

[nate4one]

I thought that you were merely disputing the timing (pre-70 AD vs. post-70 AD).

I am. Post AD 70 pastors are not called.
"no man will teach his neighbor "know the Lord" for they will know Me from the least of them to the greatest.

I agree with all you post for the PRE AD 70 church. Post AD 70, especially with the added proof of the Apostolic cessation, the 5 fold ministry as a whole, also changed.

[malakhi]

The Old Testament clearly teaches the Trinity.

I could not disagree more strongly.

The verse of Scripture that is probably the greatest doctrinal statement in the Old Testament is found in the Book of Deuteronomy

It takes a monumental torture of the plain meaning of that passage to read it as saying other than what it clearly says.

This is the word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 (my paraphrase), “Hear, O Israel: Elohim—our plural God, our Trinity, tri-personality—is one God!”

Elohim is not even found in this verse!

The name of God used here, in both instances, is YHWH, not Elohim.

Echad can mean either singular or plural unity (as "one" does in English: "one chair" or "one dining room set"). The specific meaning in the passage is determined by context. I cannot read the context here as indicating anything other than singular unity. It doesn't say "the LORD is One Trinity"; it says "the LORD is One".

I am and there is none else;
Beside Me, there is no God (Elohim).
I engird you, though you have not known Me,
So that they may know, from east to west,
That there is none but Me.
I am and there is none else,
I form the light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe--
I do all these things. (Isaiah 45:5-7)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You're are the one lying.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Mack and I have discussed this issue often of the modern day practice of speech giving:) We feel there probably should be more interaction. The problem I see with that happened quite often in our churches Sunday School Class. Not to judge the people but 99% of them did not want to seriously discuss, they just wanted to listen. When they did speak it was usually off topic, or a question that had been answered several hundred times in the past, or someone just trying to make scripture say what they wanted it to say. The few that were there to seriously look into scripture then had to sit through all this nonesense. If it wasn't for the sermons I would not have learned much from church service.

I believe church service is commanded. I also believe gathering with others to study, is commanded. We do that every Fri. evening with a group. We pick out a book and each week we all discuss what we studied and learned about it ourselves. It is a great time of fellowship.

Just as the eunuch in Acts needed help from Phillip so do all of us need help at times. Just because I ask a pastor a question does not mean I give him my allegience or am worshipping him. God gave us these men to help, he also gave us the discernment to recognize a false preacher also. If I felt the preacher of our church was only trying to get new members to increase his salary, I would be out of there, or he would. A preachers sincereity will be evident.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I could not disagree more strongly.

Well now, thats a new thought. :)

I'm giving up talking to you about Christ being God, I'm gonna keep praying for you and turn you over to God, you're in big trouble now. :)

BigMack

[Quester]

Not the modern day practice of speech giving.

Not just modern-day.

Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,


Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.


Acts 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.


Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

[nate4one]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

And if you are telling me that this must be done in a speech giving, sunday morning, sunday school worship service format ONLY, then you are very sadly narrow minded.

These gifts are exercisable on ANY stage in life. Even at a noontime work Bible study!!

just because you add your own "church attendance" into the mix is not my fault nor does it make it Gods LAW.

Nate

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Go shoot a Iraqi.

BigMack

[malakhi]

When they did speak it was usually off topic, or a question that had been answered several hundred times in the past, or someone just trying to make scripture say what they wanted it to say.

We're lucky we don't have any of that here. ;o)

[trad_anglican]

A fair question. First, there is archaeological evidence as well as external textual evidence to support a number of the elements of the story -- the existence of an Israelite kingdom in that area at the time of David, for example.

Second, Judaism as a religion is not as heavily dependent upon miracle accounts as is Christianity

What about the Exodus?