The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Reggie....is this true! You should be more careful you'll catch a cold:)

Becky

[malakhi]

If I understand what you're saying here ... this does no injury to your belief in the literalness of the Bible (Old & New Testament) miracles ... yes ?

Basically, yes. I admit I'm biased. I tend to be more uncritically accepting of the miracle accounts in the Hebrew scriptures. Although my belief in God does not depend upon the truth of these accounts. I would still believe in Him even if all of these miracles were figuratively rather than literally true.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I have no problem believing his actions as a healer. I don't even really have a problem with the resurrection (since as a Jew I do believe in the resurrection of the body). I'm more skeptical of some of the other miracle stories, but I don't discount them out of hand, because I do believe that God can (and does) perform miracles. Now, in my mind, Jesus performing miracles does not make him God (any more than Moses was God).

For instance, could it not be true that JESUS is the Son of God, the eternally existent Second Person of the Godhead ... and ... a Tzaddik ?

A Tzaddik is a son of God: first in the way we all are, being created in His image and likeness, and second, in a special way being His "adopted" son. I don't equate being a Son of God with being "one in Being" with God, but rather with being "one in Spirit" with Him. In my mind, being "One with God" is not the same as being God. This is significant when we come to the question as to whether we may worship one who is perfectly "one in Spirit" with God. I would say no. But praying to God in his name would be okay.

[malakhi]

I got so excited by the return of summer I stripped naked and went for a swim.

I'm going to choose to interpret this figuratively rather than literally! ;o)

[OLD REGGIE]

Reggie....is this true! You should be more careful you'll catch a cold:)

The part about the temperature, the ice going out of the pond, and the ducks coming back is true.

FYI you don't catch cold from cold.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You don't have aproblem with believing in the resurection, but you have a problem believing that Jesus is God....do I have this right?

Becky

[nate4one]

To make the statement that pastors at least on some level are all thinking of their salaries is not right.

Sounds pretty Catholic to me.

I do not support "pastorship" or the idea of such in a fulfilled covenant. Pastors were set up to sustain the first century believers until the time of Christ's return and the fulfillment of "all things." Their ministry went away with Apostles. After all, the Apostles set up the pastors. Without them, who squares away the "pastors?"
Also, pastors are "self proclaimed." Why do you give allegiance to a man who says he is a pastor just because he earned a degree from a denominational school?

Becky, when you break it down, it is an occupation.

Nate

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It makes a good story:)

FYI, I know the cold doesn't give you a cold, but the cold puts stress on your resistence to fight colds off. Otherwise explain why people exposed to the cold often get sick?

Becky

[CindyDawg]

You may have told us, but I don't remember. What reasons does your husband give for not wanting to go to church?

Let me see. Ok, here are 3. Maybe when he reads this he can add to it:')

1. Because he doesn't want to.

2. Because I want him to.

3. My favorite. He had to go to the UPC church every time the doors were opened when he was younger and he has already learned it all.

[Quester]

Also, pastors are "self proclaimed." Why do you give allegiance to a man who says he is a pastor just because he earned a degree from a denominational school?

Per denominational lines (Baptist, for instance), some pastors claim to be called by God to their vocation.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why do you give allegiance to a man who says he is a pastor just because he earned a degree from a denominational school?

I don't.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

In your post you said he told the pastor that he does the Lord's work, he just dosen't go to church to do it, or something to that effect. What does he consider the Lord's work to be? What is he doing for the LOrd?

Becky

[CindyDawg]

Well Nate, we Baptists do things a little different. The preachers do not work on commission. A college degree is not manditory. We have been known to train our own. Some only get a house. Many have 2nd jobs. I have to stand up for them. I have seen some as you described but most have to love the job because the earthly salary package often has a lot to be desired. Thanks for adding to my husband's 100 reasons why you don't need to go to church list though :')

[Quester]

Let me see. Ok, here are 3. Maybe when he reads this he can add to it:')

1. Because he doesn't want to.

2. Because I want him to.

3. My favorite. He had to go to the UPC church every time the doors were opened when he was younger and he has already learned it all.

Whew ... this looks like a major work of God is going to be required. But don't despair, Cindy ... if God deems it necessary, ... He can and will do it.

[malakhi]

You don't have aproblem with believing in the resurection, but you have a problem believing that Jesus is God....do I have this right?

Yes. The resurrection does not establish the divinity of Jesus. Judaism does teach the resurrection of the body. The Christian scriptures make it clear that it was God's action. God brought Elijah bodily to Heaven, but this doesn't mean that Elijah is divine.

[nate4one]

If he lets SOMEONE keep him from worshipping God

I am accused of SPIN and TWIST yet the church insists on equating worship with church attendance. The only statement to support church attendance is not forsaking the gathering of the saints. Worship is not in that sentance. Worship is completely independant of church attendance!

[al_c]

3. My favorite. He had to go to the UPC church every time the doors were opened when he was younger and he has already learned it all.

Ask him if he already learned it all, then why is he still on this earth. ;o)

[nate4one]

Good key word ...claim...

God gave them a talent for public speaking, that does not mean these men are called to preach "half truths" half of the time. Is anyone always right? If not, what right do they have to say God called them to preach lies (even though unintentional?)

Having a talent and a passion is too often reffered to as a "calling."

Nate

[malakhi]

The only statement to support church attendance is not forsaking the gathering of the saints. Worship is not in that sentance. Worship is completely independant of church attendance!

I'll agree with you on this, Nate. Church attendance is one way to engage in communal worship, but it is not the only way.

[nate4one]

Thanks for adding to my husband's 100 reasons why you don't need to go to church list though :')

I apologize. I understand this is a hard thing for you. I will lay off (in posts to YOU at least) the pastoral issue of it.

However I believe my Romans 14 point as valid.
You admit it is not necessary for salvation. Does he study the word or meet with Christians friends? Does he pray?

Nate

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Worship is keeping Gods commandments. I do not agree with your take on Hebrews 10:25. I don't think that just gathering with friends and studying the bible is what this passage is talking about. So by obeying Gods command to attend a worship service is one form of worship.

You never answered my question: what is the point of Timothy and Titus letters if all God wanted was for us to study scripture in our homes?

Becky