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To: VadeRetro
"Evolution as put forth by Darwin was already coevolution.

We are concerned with facts here. What Darwin said or did not say is irrelevant. If he gave proof of it that would be relevant, but of course he did not. He never gave proof of anything.

The point was made that to account for some evolutionary changes in hemoglobin, one requires about 120 amino acid substitutions...as individual events, as though it is necessary to get one of them done and spread throughout the whole population before you could start processing the next one..

First of all, the above has nothing to do with the kind of co-evolution we were speaking of. We were talking of different genes, different characteristics, arising. This tells of just one gene, one faculty. However, let me just say this regarding the above. It is hogwash. Here's why. Yes, the change does not need to take place in one person at one time. However, because mutations are rare (else a species would dissappear in no time at all) the first mutation would have to spread itself to other individuals in the species. The problem with spreading the mutation is genetics. Each time it spreads, the mutation only has one chance in two to survive (and no, this has nothing to do with survival of the fittest and all that nonsense). So for a mutation to spread would be pretty difficult (that's one of the reasons for evos developing punk-eek). While you could be having other mutations going on in other individuals, this would not add to the mutations in the group with the other mutation because of the laws of genetics. Even if these two sets of mutatated genes were two be resident one in the father and one in the mother of a child - the child would only inherit one of the genes because of the laws of genetics. The article is therefore absolute hogwash.

BTW - the above is one of the many things in which Darwin has been thoroughly refuted. He thought that the differences of the parents "melded" in the progeny.

1,024 posted on 03/20/2002 6:03:47 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
However, because mutations are rare (else a species would dissappear in no time at all) the first mutation would have to spread itself to other individuals in the species. The problem with spreading the mutation is genetics. Each time it spreads, the mutation only has one chance in two to survive (and no, this has nothing to do with survival of the fittest and all that nonsense). So for a mutation to spread would be pretty difficult (that's one of the reasons for evos developing punk-eek). While you could be having other mutations going on in other individuals, this would not add to the mutations in the group with the other mutation because of the laws of genetics. Even if these two sets of mutatated genes were two be resident one in the father and one in the mother of a child - the child would only inherit one of the genes because of the laws of genetics. The article is therefore absolute hogwash.
Bad model. I was asking tallhappy earlier why sex is important. It's important because every individual of a sexual species is totally unique. This makes having more than one experiment going on a piece of cake.

There are all kinds of mutations in all kinds of genes going around in a sexual species at any given time. Your model is still too serial. There are probably other problems because my eyes glaze over when I read your dense blue paragraphs. Are you allowing for recessive genes? You have more genes to give your children than you may be expressing.

A population is a cloud of individual genomes about a central average. Selection can move the average if things change. Think of that cloud as a sphere. The rightmost 40 percent gets lopped off. Now the center of mass has "moved."

BTW - the above is one of the many things in which Darwin has been thoroughly refuted. He thought that the differences of the parents "melded" in the progeny.
Darwin wrote before Mendel. Anyway, the differences of the parents do meld in the progeny, but only overall, not in the micro traits.
1,027 posted on 03/20/2002 6:18:05 PM PST by VadeRetro
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