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Common Creationist Arguments - Pseudoscience
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/Pseudoscience.shtml ^

Posted on 03/13/2002 4:47:26 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Pseudoscience

Pseudoscience is a scientific-sounding argument which in fact has no scientific validity whatsoever. This type of argument is based on the fact that the average layperson knows so little about science that he or she is liable to judge a scientific argument solely on its style and presentation (eg- "does it sound scientific?", or "does it incorporate scientific-sounding terms?") for lack of any other method of judging its validity.

Suggested Tactics

This type of creationist argument is difficult for most people to defend against, unless they are fairly knowledgeable about science (that's why it's so popular with creationists- they may not know anything about science, but they're gambling that you don't either). In my case, I simply call upon my knowledge of certain basic scientific principles that I learned in university, but I can't instruct everyone to do this, since not everyone has a technical background.

Therefore, it's difficult for me to recommand tactics for laypeople to counteract this sort of argument, but we should keep in mind that creationist pseudoscience arguments are almost never generated out of the mind of the creationist himself. They all tend to come from the same widely distributed pool of creationist literature, which is one of the reasons that creationists all over the world tend to spout the same pseudoscience arguments. I can offer the following suggestions:

    Remember that if your opponent has no direct knowledge of the science involved, and is merely claiming truth because "I read it somewhere", this constitutes a fallacious appeal to authority. Point this out to him. One should always be able to explain the logic and science behind one's argument rather than simply making vague reference to an anonymous source.

    Since these arguments are actually second hand arguments, demand to see the original source for his claim. When you see the source, check the credentials of the author. If they aren't fraudulent, check up on the university where the author got his degree. Odds are that the degree is either honorary, or it comes from a cheap diploma mill (or worse yet, one of the many church-run schools set up expressly for the purpose of handing out degrees to creationists). If you don't have the resources to check up on universities, try looking up the Talk.Origins website at www.talkorigins.org, which maintains a list of discredited creationist "experts" and their bogus credentials.

Examples follow:

"Occam's Razor is a scientific principle which says that when faced with two theories, we should always choose the simplest theory. Evolution theory requires billions of years of chemical reactions, environmental effects, and genetic mutations. Creation theory simply says "God did it". Creation theory is obviously simpler, therefore Occam's Razor demands that we must select Creation theory on scientific grounds."

This is perhaps the single most moronic creationist idea I've ever heard (it's also been used to "prove" the existence of God, by arguing that the concept of God is much simpler than the study of science). It's a classic example of creationist pseudoscience. They learn the term "Occam's Razor" and they learn just enough about its definition to abuse it, but they make no effort whatsoever to learn its true meaning.

"Choose the simplest theory" is an oversimplification of the concept of Occam's Razor. The term is named after the 14th century philosopher and theologian William of Occam. It might strike some as strange that a scientific principle might have come from a theologian, but good scientists do not practice appeals to authority or ad hominem attacks. If an idea makes sense, it doesn't matter who it came from, and the universal acceptance of Occam's Razor is a perfect example of that philosophy.

In any case, he argued that we should never "multiply entities unnecessarily". In other words, cut out extraneous terms from an equation. He used that principle (which is really just an argument against redundancy) to show that it was impossible to deduce God's existence through reason alone, so one would have to take it purely on faith. The irony is that a theologian realized that there was no logical basis for God's existence more than 600 years ago but modern fundamentalists still can't figure it out, and actually use his name to "prove" the exact opposite of what he himself argued!

For those who cannot appreciate the simplicity of Occam's Razor in its original form, Isaac Newton restated it thusly: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." In plain English, when faced with two scientific theories which make the same predictions, choose the simpler theory. Or, as Stephen Hawking put it: "Cut out all the features of the theory which cannot be observed." (taken from A Brief History of Time).

Like all scientific principles, Occam's Razor is accepted not because William of Occam said it, but because it makes sense. You don't need to appeal to authority or take its validity on faith. If you are faced with two competing theories between which you have no other method of deciding, is it not obvious that the theory containing extra or unverifiable terms must therefore contain redundancies? The fact that the simpler theory can accomplish the same descriptive and predictive feats while utilizing fewer terms and not relying on unverifiable or unobservable phenomena is evidence of superiority.

Consider the analogy of two mechanical devices for making widgets. Both perform exactly the same function. In repeated, exhaustive tests, both are shown to produce exactly the same quality of widget, at the same rate, with the same raw materials. Both produce the same amount of waste. Both consume the same amount of electrical power. They cost the same. In other words, their performance is identical in every measurable way. The only noticeable difference is that device #1 is much simpler than device #2. It contains fewer components and mechanisms, and its operating principle is therefore simpler. Which one would you choose?

Suppose the salesman for device #2 is quite upset that you are leaning toward device #1, and he promises to do better. The next day, he returns with a new device (we'll call it device #3) which is completely sealed in black plastic (the classic "black box"). He says it's the latest, most advanced widget-making machine in the world. You feed it electricity and raw materials, and it spits out widgets. Its performance is no different from device #1 and device #2, but it is not user servicable. You can't see inside to figure out how it works, and the salesman refuses to let you see diagrams or schematics, ostensibly because the operation of the machine is beyond both your intellectual capacity and his. The salesman argues that device #3 is actually simpler than both device #1 and #2 because it has just one component: the black box. Does this make sense to you? Again, which device would you choose?

Occam's Razor is merely a name given to a logical and intuitively obvious thought process of eliminating redundancies. It cannot be used to choose between competing theories whose predictions are vastly different, any more than the simplicity of a drill press can be used to prove that it's superior to a fighter plane. Now that we are equipped with an understanding of the reasoning behind Occam's Razor, we can list some of the reasons that it cannot be used to support either creationism or the existence of God:

  1. Occam's Razor is a method of choosing between competing scientific theories. It is irrelevant when comparing a scientific theory to the concept of God or creationism because God and creationism are not scientific theories. There are no objective terms in the concept of God. No equations. No mechanisms. No limits. No methods through which it can be used to predict the outcome of natural processes. No methods through which it can be tested, or disproven. The concept of God is actually the antithesis of a scientific theory, in that one resorts to the divine only when one's reason has either failed or been voluntarily suppressed. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines. It couldn't be used to evaluate a machine versus, say, a piece of music.

  2. "God" is actually not a "simpler theory" than science. "God" is merely a three-letter name which is affixed to a deity whose machinations are supposedly so complex that they are beyond mortal comprehension! If God's methods are inscrutable and incomprehensible to humans (as claimed in the Bible and by all Christians), then what business does anyone have claiming that they are "simpler" than a theory which humans can understand? In the analogy above, the concept of God is very much like the "black box". The salesman may argue that it's simpler because it's a nice smooth black box instead of a set of gears and motors, but that's a childish superficiality at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

  3. Occam's Razor is not invoked unless the competing theories make identical predictions. It is a method of eliminating redundancies, as William of Occam first reasoned, and it only applies when the performance of the competing theories is identical. When two theories make vastly different predictions (as is the case with science and Biblical literalism), then Occam's Razor is completely irrelevant. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines whose performance was identical. If the two machines made widgets of vastly different characteristics, Occam's Razor would be irrelevant.

The use of Occam's Razor to "prove" the existence of God or the validity of Biblical literalism is a classic example of creationist pseudoscience, because it is so emblematic of their method: take a real principle and grossly misinterpret it to mean the exact opposite of what it truly means.

"The second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. It states that complexity cannot be spontaneously created, so it is impossible for natural processes to create a complex organism from a simple organism!"

This is one of the oldest, and most popular creationist pseudoscience arguments. It's been kicking around for more than a century, thanks to general public ignorance of thermodynamics. In fact, it's wrong on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start! Perhaps we should start at the beginning, with the definition of the second law of thermodynamics. According to my engineering thermodynamics textbook, the second law of thermodynamics has two basic postulates:

  1. All physical processes create entropy (microscopic disorder).

  2. The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease, ie- entropy can be created but not destroyed.

That's a lot different from "complexity cannot be spontaneously created", isn't it? Big surprise- creationists don't know anything about thermodynamics. Now that we've established their bizarre misconception about the second law of thermodynamics, we should try to understand what strange mental contortions were necessary to go from "the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease" to "complexity cannot be spontaneously created."

Upon further questioning, creationists invariably reveal the following beliefs about the second law:

  1. "The entropy of a living organism can't decrease."

  2. "The creation of complexity requires the destruction of entropy."

  3. "The second law of thermodynamics applies to spontaneous events, but not to the deliberate acts of man (or deity). That's why humans can build a complex structure but natural processes can't."

These three beliefs are all completely wrong, and they all indicate a frightening ignorance of scientific principles. Let us examine each belief separately:

  1. Actually, the entropy of a living organism can decrease, because a living organism is not a closed system. Since it is an open system, entropy can leave and enter. Entropy doesn't have to be destroyed- just moved. The concept of the closed system vs the open system is one of the most basic concepts that we teach kids in high school, and if someone thinks a living organism is a closed system, he must be staggeringly ignorant. Food, water, and energy enter and leave your body all the time, thus making it an open system. Furthermore, an entire species is even less of a closed system than an individual life form, and evolution occurs from one generation to the next, not in a single organism as it ages.

  2. Complexity is not the destruction of disorder or the creation of order. In fact, there is more disorder in complex systems, as any student of chaos theory (or government bureacracies) can tell you. There is far more entropy in a nuclear power plant than there is in an ice cube, and a pretty snowflake has much more complexity than the drop of water from whence it came.

  3. Physical laws apply all the time, to everybody, regardless of intent or intelligence. If the second law of thermodynamics truly prohibited the creation of complexity, then it wouldn't matter whether the complexity is created by "deliberate" acts or by random happenstance- it would be impossible in both cases. It is utterly unbelievable to me that creationist ignoramuses would interpret any physical law to only apply in the absence of deliberate intervention. No other physical laws of physics are interpreted to apply only in the absence of intelligent intervention- does gravity shut off when humans intervene?

This argument has been so thoroughly disproven, so many times in so many ways, that it's almost comical when people keep bringing it up. They might as well just tattoo their foreheads with the words "scientific ignoramus."

"By taking a random mixture of elements and analysing the probability of elements randomly forming into the correct combinations and orientations to make a simple amino acid, I can show that it is probabilistically impossible for the simplest amino acid to form, never mind the first living cell. Therefore, a Creator must have formed the first organisms, if not all of them."

This argument is invalid for the following reasons:

  1. Spontaneous formation of amino and fatty acids has been observed in the laboratory, by subjecting an atmosphere of hydrogen, water vapour, ammonia and methane to electrical discharges and ultraviolet radiation. This simulates primeval Earth environmental conditions, therefore it is an observed fact, and not subject to debate.

  2. Chemical reactions are not random! Elements only bond in certain combinations. Light a match in a cloud of hydrogen and oxygen, and countless trillions upon trillions of hydrogen and oxygen atoms will react to form H2O. Not H8O, and not H5O, but H2O. Purely random combinatorics are a completely invalid way of modelling chemical reactions.

  3. The first living cell did not have to form from raw materials. It would have formed from more primitive components such as RNA, which was proposed many years ago as the first self-replicating molecule. It was even experimentally found to have catalytic capabilities for adding new nucleotides to the end of the chain or removing them, leading to the term "RNA World" to describe the origins of life. But even if RNA is not the candidate we're looking for, there is certainly no need to assume that the first organic self-replicators would have been full-blown single-celled organisms. The early self-replicators (such as RNA, if it was indeed the first self-replicator) would not have left fossils.

  4. This entire attack is a red herring, because evolution theory and abiogenesis (the formation of organic self-replicators from simpler organic materials) are two completely different theories. Lumping them together is just as fallacious as lumping evolution theory with Big Bang theory. The process of evolution is heritable change in populations over multiple generations. Because the process of evolution requires multiple generations to occur, it cannot possibly happen before the first living organism! It doesn't kick in until after the first living organism already exists! Even if abiogenesis could be disproved, evolution theory would still be valid.

I should also note that this argument is generally coupled with the fallacious reasoning that "anything we don't understand is proof of divine intervention." Poorly understood phenomena are not invalidations of science- they are opportunities for scientific investigation. If we treat every gap in our understanding as proof of divine intervention, we would be no better than the tribal primitives who attributed divine intervention to everything from solar eclipses to rain. Visit the Probability page if you want to know more.

"Some older species fossils can be found on top of newer fossils. This inconsistency in your so-called 'progressionism' proves that creation theory is correct, since it means that all species were created at the same time."

More bad science, since this only occurs with animal remains that are on the surface. What happens is that severe erosion or a geological upheaval can occasionally expose strata bearing fossils, and of course, when Skippy the Dog runs away and dies near these old fossils, the "Young Earth Creationist" crowd immediately interprets this as disproof of the entire fossil record, the entire field of geology, the age of the Earth, etc.

As usual, their argument is based on ignorance of proper scientific method. This evidence would be disproof of the fossil record if it was impossible to rationalize its existence with that record. However, that is simply not the case. Geologists can examine patterns in the rock to determine whether a region is old or new, cross-cut, the result of upheaval, etc. It is the creationists who will look at a region, assume its age without using proper methodology, and then use fossil findings in that region to "disprove" geology and evolution theory.

"Evolution can explain changes in a species, but where does a whole new species come from? Speciation is the downfall of Evolution Theory!"

This is another case of creationists projecting their own pseudoscientific attitudes onto evolution theory. In this case, they are predisposed to believe that the creation of a species is a sudden, dramatic event at some fixed moment in time. One moment there's species A, and then the next moment there's species B. Much as God created Man from dust, and Eve from Adam's rib, they imagine that "evolutionists" describe evolution creating a man directly from an ape. But evolution theory does not work that way.

Speciation is not a sudden, miraculous transformation from one species to another. The way creationists envision evolution theory, a pregnant female ape went into labour one day and a human being popped out! It is a gross understatement to say that this is a misrepresentation of the truth. In reality, evolution theory merely proposes that a great many small changes eventually caused an animal population to become intersterile with its ancestors.

Of course, this would mean that there should be fossil evidence of various intermediate stages between successful species, and there is. Naturally, creationists explain all of the evidence away by pointing the finger at their favourite whipping boy: the global conspiracy of evil scientists, who work tirelessly to cover up the truth and fabricate false evidence. These people watch "X-Files" too damned much.

"I know we've observed micro-evolution, but what about macro-evolution? There is no evidence for macro-evolution!"

The creationist invention of the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution" is a good example of how they try to mutilate the terms of science to their own advantage. Biologists do not differentiate between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, any more than mathematicians differentiate between micro-addition and macro-addition.

Their argument that there is no evidence for "macroevolution" is ridiculous because "macroevolution" is simply the result of adding a lot of "microevolution" together, and "microevolution" is, by their own admission, completely supported by various forms of evidence.

The other problem for this argument is that there actually is evidence to directly support what they describe as "macroevolution", and it's called "the fossil record". It's evidence because it is consistent with prediction. Of course, that's not enough for the creationists- they demand direct observation of massive evolutionary change in living animals, even though they know that we would have to observe living animals for millions of years in order to obtain the evidence they seek. Can you see the problem with this demand? It's pretty obvious- they are deliberately asking for a form of evidence which is impossible to obtain (millions of years of direct observation), and ignoring a form of evidence (the fossil record) which is relatively easy to obtain.

The universe operates on tiny processes, affecting tiny particles, which add up in tremendous numbers to cause large changes. If someone is going to claim that a slow, steady process cannot create large-scale changes given sufficient time, he had better provide some evidence and reasoning, rather than simply stating it as a fact and demanding impossible forms of evidence to disprove it. Are we to assume that all gradual processes eventually hit "brick walls" and stop, for mysterious and unknown reasons?

Do we question tectonic plate theory on the basis that we've observed small-scale tectonic plate movement but not large-scale tectonic plate movement? Do we insist that no one should believe in tectonic plate theory until we've been able to observe it for millions of years, so we can see long-distance movements firsthand? Do we deny the possibility of large-scale rock erosion because we've only seen small scale rock erosion? Why would a gradual process like tectonic plate movement, rock erosion, or evolution suddenly stop after an arbitrary length of time? What would make it stop? Why make this ridiculous distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution?" Where is the line drawn between the two? What causes the barrier? These are questions that the creationists don't attempt to ask or answer, because like O.J. Simpson's defense lawyers, they're not serious about uncovering the truth. They just want to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of a gullible audience.

The "microevolution vs macroevolution" argument is an example of creationists projecting their own mentality onto evolution, and then attacking the resulting strawman, ironically, for the very aspects that come from creationism. Creationism describes separate and distinct species: "each according to its kind". Creationists therefore make the same assumption: species are separate, indivisible, and disconnected. When they project this mentality onto evolution, they run into an obvious problem: there is no way for the process of evolution to "jump" over the invisible "barrier" between species. The problem is that they are assuming that this barrier exists! The terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are not found in biology; they are creationist inventions. Gradual changes eventually add up, and can turn one species into two, or they can cause a species to change so much that it becomes a distinct species from its predecessors.

As a thought experiment, consider human beings. It is generally assumed that any male/female pair of healthy human beings can produce children. But biological reproduction is a complex process, and it requires great genetic commonality. We know that two modern human beings can produce children, but what about a modern woman and a man from ten thousand years ago? What about a modern woman and a man from fifty thousand years ago? Is there still enough genetic commonality? Species are not delineated by distinct, clear boundaries. Rather, they are defined by intersterility and overt physical characteristics, and there is no "barrier" between species for the process of evolution to hurdle.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: VadeRetro;Aquinasfan
One of those articles on ring species I lost my bookmarks to is just here. It's about them darn salamanders in California you mentioned earlier ;-)

Now if that isn't convincing...

741 posted on 03/19/2002 3:19:44 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: tallhappy
Typing a little slow tonight aren't we, Einstein?
742 posted on 03/19/2002 3:19:53 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: BMCDA
Now if that isn't convincing...

There are those for whom evidence is not the main thing.

743 posted on 03/19/2002 3:21:32 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: tallhappy
I'm going to give you a break and go out to eat. Try to think.
744 posted on 03/19/2002 3:23:35 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
What do bacteria do, and when do they do it? Is it: 1) mitosis, 2) meiosis, or 3) none of the above?

You are an idiot.

Do you kjnow what a molecule is? My guess is no.

745 posted on 03/19/2002 3:25:40 PM PST by tallhappy
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To: PatrickHenry
Lurking ...
746 posted on 03/19/2002 3:27:33 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Heartlander
...we don’t need a reason for everything, just an explanation....

That's all you get from science: explanations.

747 posted on 03/19/2002 3:28:54 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: Doctor Stochastic
That's all you get from science: explanations.

Learn something about science dude. It is actually a lot more exciting and intriguing than you think.

748 posted on 03/19/2002 3:37:24 PM PST by tallhappy
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To: Heartlander
Why?

Because it isn't an explanation at all. It only makes you think you have an answer.

749 posted on 03/19/2002 3:38:28 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: BMCDA
Why can't 'Intelligent Design' be an answer yet random chance can?
750 posted on 03/19/2002 3:46:32 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
Since evolution and nature are the driving forces - than everything we do must further it's cause.

Do you know the difference between descriptive science and prescriptive ethics?

751 posted on 03/19/2002 3:47:10 PM PST by Lev
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To: tallhappy
You are an idiot.

Do you kjnow what a molecule is? My guess is no.

You seem to have made a disappointing use of the time. At least I had a good turkey cheese sub.

Such ad hominem! Can't you be as cordial and hail-fellow-well-met to me as I am being to you? Can't we just have a rational discussion of the finer scientific points of creation versus evolution?

(Note to self: Getting too longwinded here.)

What your fears of inadequacy must be doing to your nightmares I can imagine, but this forum is not the place for therapy.

(Note to regulars: If I'm being more of an a$$hole than usual, see post 739 for a clue what is going on.)

You have, in your usual parlance, detected me "bullying" Aquinasfan, whose delusional system you profess not to share. At least, that is your standard rationale. You accept evolution but feel sorry for the pathetic creationists bullied by people whom you are uniquely qualified to spot as not knowing what they are talking about. (Hence, also, the tallhappy entrance post, optionally repeated to all or several E-side parties.) I assume you actually are aware of the unscientific nature of the following argument against macroevolution:

My problem is, somewhere along the line one member of the daughter species mutated enough to become reproductively isolated from the parent species. But at the same time that creature must necessarily be reproductively isolated from the other members of the daughter species, unless an opposite sex member of the daughter species mutated comparably simultaneously.
Now riding to the rescue of such is not simple. A frontal defense is out of the question. A diversion, rather, is required so that the pathetic bully-ee can escape.

Your target is the following paragraph of mine, which I admit is a rather rushed description for an even less technical than myself audience.

I've mentioned clones evolve slowly relative to sexuals. There's a fascinating scenario in which early organisms rather freely exchanged materials through bacterial conjugation. Budding and other cloning techniques then produced a long stasis, ending only when "modern" mitosis developed, leading fairly quickly to meiosis, sex at the cellular level. That produced the Precambrian "sizzle" of suddenly fast evolution leading to the Cambrian Explosion of Creationist pamplet fame. (You still see people posting that all the phyla of life appear full-blown for the first time "at the bottom of the geologic column in the Cambrian.")
Now, I asked you a lot of questions after you did your usual. They were not off-point. I'm helping you do what you don't do well, which is say what you're saying.

You seem to assume "modern" mitosis means "as opposed to ancient mitosis." I gave you a figure that suggests an alternate interpretation. Do you see it?

Are you going to demolish the point I'm making to Aquinasfan, support "Don't second-guess" as just-as-good science, or confine yourself to the usual diversions on 1) is anybody else here tallhappy? and 2) can anybody else here guess what tallhappy is thinking?

752 posted on 03/19/2002 4:43:12 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: tallhappy
Do you kjnow what a molecule is? My guess is no.

Why is sex important?

I haven't been able to stop thinking about it much since I was in the seventh grade. Is this normal? All my English teachers looked sexy to me, even the ugly ones. This can't be right. So now I'm 52 and the only difference is I can't seem to do as much about it as before.

753 posted on 03/19/2002 4:56:36 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Lev
And never the two should meet?
754 posted on 03/19/2002 5:06:15 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
Since evolution and nature are the driving forces - than everything we do must further it's cause.

Lev: Do you know the difference between descriptive science and prescriptive ethics?

And never the two should meet?

They meet but what you are saying is moral code = evolution. This is not the case. Evolution and other sciences are the means of accomplishing ends determined by whatever moral code you have. Regards.

755 posted on 03/19/2002 5:34:17 PM PST by Lev
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To: VadeRetro
And they do that despite all the modern non-mammalian species running and flying around that gore3000 can name with hammer-anvil-stirrup earbones.

Let me show you the following description of mammals:

Mammals are a group of vertebrates (animals that have a backbone). Certain characteristics separate them from all other animals: mammals breathe air through lungs, give birth to live young, produce milk for their young, are warm-blooded, and have hair or fur. They also have relatively large brains and a variety of tooth sizes and shapes. From: Mammals- Characteristics

As you are no doubt aware, that description is wrong. We both know one mammal that does not fit it - the platypus.

Thanks to that species, the part about live young was taken out of the official definitions. The paleontologists were proven wrong - but only because we had found a live species. If all we had had were the bones of the platypus, then we would though it bore live young and we would have been wrong, very wrong. We would have learned nothing and we would have just re-established the self-fullfilling prophecy of phony paleontology. Further, the part about live young is certainly much more related to the mammary glands than the shape of the ear. There is absolutely no necessary connection between the ear and the other features and if you really believe that species did evolve you would have to admit that sometime during the development of mammals not all of these features were present. That is - unless you wish to posit the ridiculous notion that through super-evo selection all the different characteristics of mammals appeared suddenly at once. ( O wait, is not that what creationists say?).

756 posted on 03/19/2002 5:55:56 PM PST by gore3000
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To: Lev
Evolution if used solely to prove that God does not exist is a moral code and an agenda. Yet, if evolution leaves the door open to the possibility of an Intelligent Designer… I can only hope more productive discussions will come…

Regards

757 posted on 03/19/2002 5:57:23 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: VadeRetro
Wouldn't it be more like a design if there were a single, standard gene for cytochrome c or hemoglobin?

Nope. Just because we do not know the reason, does not mean there is no reason. We learned that recently when the evos made the argumentum ab ignorantia (for the evos here let me translate - argument from ignorance) that the DNA codons between genes which had been mapped in the genome project were "junk DNA". It took less than a year to prove the evos wrong (thankfully real scientists did not listen to them, else we would have missed out on much progress in biology).

758 posted on 03/19/2002 6:09:49 PM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
There is absolutely no necessary connection between the ear and the other features and if you really believe that species did evolve you would have to admit that sometime during the development of mammals not all of these features were present.

Actually, it relates to the disappearance of the multi-boned lower jaw. Why would I have the slightest reluctance to admit that sometime during the development of mammals, not all features were present? Early in the development of mammals, they weren't really mammals and essentially none of the various diagnostic features were present. Well, maybe that's not quite right.


I know you remember this figure!

Here's an exception to the rule about ear bones. All but the top two are reptiles, but some of them have the ear bones! (But they aren't around anymore. All the synapsids seem to be real mammals now.)

Notice that even the primitive one at the bottom also has slightly differentiated teeth, the start of pair of canines. The point is, only this one lineage of reptiles, none of whom are still around as reptiles, underwent these changes. Evolution says you have to look up the tree of life from there for similar features, not on side branches or below. (OK, there's a complicating factor called convergent evolution which can be hard to sort out in the fossil record sometimes.) Creation/ID shrugs and says "He can do what he wants. Mustn't second-guess."

Never mind for a moment about what's science. What's actually telling you something and what isn't?

759 posted on 03/19/2002 6:15:04 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
There are the same number of bones found in both the arm and the wing -- at least in early birds, such as archaeopteryx. In later birds some of the wing bones have fused, but they are still discernible as having been separate bones at one time (sort of like the teeny-tiny toes of modern horses).

That's the problem with archaeopteryx, it was not a bird. The forearms did not give it the capability to fly. You need bones in the "arms" in order to have enough wingspan for flight. Archaeopteryx did not have that. It could not fly. It had no descendants. It was what evolutionists would deem impossible - a feathered dinoasaur. It led nowhere, it came from nowhere. A refutal of evolution, not an example of it.

760 posted on 03/19/2002 6:15:44 PM PST by gore3000
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