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Common Creationist Arguments - Pseudoscience
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/Pseudoscience.shtml ^

Posted on 03/13/2002 4:47:26 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Pseudoscience

Pseudoscience is a scientific-sounding argument which in fact has no scientific validity whatsoever. This type of argument is based on the fact that the average layperson knows so little about science that he or she is liable to judge a scientific argument solely on its style and presentation (eg- "does it sound scientific?", or "does it incorporate scientific-sounding terms?") for lack of any other method of judging its validity.

Suggested Tactics

This type of creationist argument is difficult for most people to defend against, unless they are fairly knowledgeable about science (that's why it's so popular with creationists- they may not know anything about science, but they're gambling that you don't either). In my case, I simply call upon my knowledge of certain basic scientific principles that I learned in university, but I can't instruct everyone to do this, since not everyone has a technical background.

Therefore, it's difficult for me to recommand tactics for laypeople to counteract this sort of argument, but we should keep in mind that creationist pseudoscience arguments are almost never generated out of the mind of the creationist himself. They all tend to come from the same widely distributed pool of creationist literature, which is one of the reasons that creationists all over the world tend to spout the same pseudoscience arguments. I can offer the following suggestions:

    Remember that if your opponent has no direct knowledge of the science involved, and is merely claiming truth because "I read it somewhere", this constitutes a fallacious appeal to authority. Point this out to him. One should always be able to explain the logic and science behind one's argument rather than simply making vague reference to an anonymous source.

    Since these arguments are actually second hand arguments, demand to see the original source for his claim. When you see the source, check the credentials of the author. If they aren't fraudulent, check up on the university where the author got his degree. Odds are that the degree is either honorary, or it comes from a cheap diploma mill (or worse yet, one of the many church-run schools set up expressly for the purpose of handing out degrees to creationists). If you don't have the resources to check up on universities, try looking up the Talk.Origins website at www.talkorigins.org, which maintains a list of discredited creationist "experts" and their bogus credentials.

Examples follow:

"Occam's Razor is a scientific principle which says that when faced with two theories, we should always choose the simplest theory. Evolution theory requires billions of years of chemical reactions, environmental effects, and genetic mutations. Creation theory simply says "God did it". Creation theory is obviously simpler, therefore Occam's Razor demands that we must select Creation theory on scientific grounds."

This is perhaps the single most moronic creationist idea I've ever heard (it's also been used to "prove" the existence of God, by arguing that the concept of God is much simpler than the study of science). It's a classic example of creationist pseudoscience. They learn the term "Occam's Razor" and they learn just enough about its definition to abuse it, but they make no effort whatsoever to learn its true meaning.

"Choose the simplest theory" is an oversimplification of the concept of Occam's Razor. The term is named after the 14th century philosopher and theologian William of Occam. It might strike some as strange that a scientific principle might have come from a theologian, but good scientists do not practice appeals to authority or ad hominem attacks. If an idea makes sense, it doesn't matter who it came from, and the universal acceptance of Occam's Razor is a perfect example of that philosophy.

In any case, he argued that we should never "multiply entities unnecessarily". In other words, cut out extraneous terms from an equation. He used that principle (which is really just an argument against redundancy) to show that it was impossible to deduce God's existence through reason alone, so one would have to take it purely on faith. The irony is that a theologian realized that there was no logical basis for God's existence more than 600 years ago but modern fundamentalists still can't figure it out, and actually use his name to "prove" the exact opposite of what he himself argued!

For those who cannot appreciate the simplicity of Occam's Razor in its original form, Isaac Newton restated it thusly: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." In plain English, when faced with two scientific theories which make the same predictions, choose the simpler theory. Or, as Stephen Hawking put it: "Cut out all the features of the theory which cannot be observed." (taken from A Brief History of Time).

Like all scientific principles, Occam's Razor is accepted not because William of Occam said it, but because it makes sense. You don't need to appeal to authority or take its validity on faith. If you are faced with two competing theories between which you have no other method of deciding, is it not obvious that the theory containing extra or unverifiable terms must therefore contain redundancies? The fact that the simpler theory can accomplish the same descriptive and predictive feats while utilizing fewer terms and not relying on unverifiable or unobservable phenomena is evidence of superiority.

Consider the analogy of two mechanical devices for making widgets. Both perform exactly the same function. In repeated, exhaustive tests, both are shown to produce exactly the same quality of widget, at the same rate, with the same raw materials. Both produce the same amount of waste. Both consume the same amount of electrical power. They cost the same. In other words, their performance is identical in every measurable way. The only noticeable difference is that device #1 is much simpler than device #2. It contains fewer components and mechanisms, and its operating principle is therefore simpler. Which one would you choose?

Suppose the salesman for device #2 is quite upset that you are leaning toward device #1, and he promises to do better. The next day, he returns with a new device (we'll call it device #3) which is completely sealed in black plastic (the classic "black box"). He says it's the latest, most advanced widget-making machine in the world. You feed it electricity and raw materials, and it spits out widgets. Its performance is no different from device #1 and device #2, but it is not user servicable. You can't see inside to figure out how it works, and the salesman refuses to let you see diagrams or schematics, ostensibly because the operation of the machine is beyond both your intellectual capacity and his. The salesman argues that device #3 is actually simpler than both device #1 and #2 because it has just one component: the black box. Does this make sense to you? Again, which device would you choose?

Occam's Razor is merely a name given to a logical and intuitively obvious thought process of eliminating redundancies. It cannot be used to choose between competing theories whose predictions are vastly different, any more than the simplicity of a drill press can be used to prove that it's superior to a fighter plane. Now that we are equipped with an understanding of the reasoning behind Occam's Razor, we can list some of the reasons that it cannot be used to support either creationism or the existence of God:

  1. Occam's Razor is a method of choosing between competing scientific theories. It is irrelevant when comparing a scientific theory to the concept of God or creationism because God and creationism are not scientific theories. There are no objective terms in the concept of God. No equations. No mechanisms. No limits. No methods through which it can be used to predict the outcome of natural processes. No methods through which it can be tested, or disproven. The concept of God is actually the antithesis of a scientific theory, in that one resorts to the divine only when one's reason has either failed or been voluntarily suppressed. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines. It couldn't be used to evaluate a machine versus, say, a piece of music.

  2. "God" is actually not a "simpler theory" than science. "God" is merely a three-letter name which is affixed to a deity whose machinations are supposedly so complex that they are beyond mortal comprehension! If God's methods are inscrutable and incomprehensible to humans (as claimed in the Bible and by all Christians), then what business does anyone have claiming that they are "simpler" than a theory which humans can understand? In the analogy above, the concept of God is very much like the "black box". The salesman may argue that it's simpler because it's a nice smooth black box instead of a set of gears and motors, but that's a childish superficiality at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

  3. Occam's Razor is not invoked unless the competing theories make identical predictions. It is a method of eliminating redundancies, as William of Occam first reasoned, and it only applies when the performance of the competing theories is identical. When two theories make vastly different predictions (as is the case with science and Biblical literalism), then Occam's Razor is completely irrelevant. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines whose performance was identical. If the two machines made widgets of vastly different characteristics, Occam's Razor would be irrelevant.

The use of Occam's Razor to "prove" the existence of God or the validity of Biblical literalism is a classic example of creationist pseudoscience, because it is so emblematic of their method: take a real principle and grossly misinterpret it to mean the exact opposite of what it truly means.

"The second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. It states that complexity cannot be spontaneously created, so it is impossible for natural processes to create a complex organism from a simple organism!"

This is one of the oldest, and most popular creationist pseudoscience arguments. It's been kicking around for more than a century, thanks to general public ignorance of thermodynamics. In fact, it's wrong on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start! Perhaps we should start at the beginning, with the definition of the second law of thermodynamics. According to my engineering thermodynamics textbook, the second law of thermodynamics has two basic postulates:

  1. All physical processes create entropy (microscopic disorder).

  2. The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease, ie- entropy can be created but not destroyed.

That's a lot different from "complexity cannot be spontaneously created", isn't it? Big surprise- creationists don't know anything about thermodynamics. Now that we've established their bizarre misconception about the second law of thermodynamics, we should try to understand what strange mental contortions were necessary to go from "the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease" to "complexity cannot be spontaneously created."

Upon further questioning, creationists invariably reveal the following beliefs about the second law:

  1. "The entropy of a living organism can't decrease."

  2. "The creation of complexity requires the destruction of entropy."

  3. "The second law of thermodynamics applies to spontaneous events, but not to the deliberate acts of man (or deity). That's why humans can build a complex structure but natural processes can't."

These three beliefs are all completely wrong, and they all indicate a frightening ignorance of scientific principles. Let us examine each belief separately:

  1. Actually, the entropy of a living organism can decrease, because a living organism is not a closed system. Since it is an open system, entropy can leave and enter. Entropy doesn't have to be destroyed- just moved. The concept of the closed system vs the open system is one of the most basic concepts that we teach kids in high school, and if someone thinks a living organism is a closed system, he must be staggeringly ignorant. Food, water, and energy enter and leave your body all the time, thus making it an open system. Furthermore, an entire species is even less of a closed system than an individual life form, and evolution occurs from one generation to the next, not in a single organism as it ages.

  2. Complexity is not the destruction of disorder or the creation of order. In fact, there is more disorder in complex systems, as any student of chaos theory (or government bureacracies) can tell you. There is far more entropy in a nuclear power plant than there is in an ice cube, and a pretty snowflake has much more complexity than the drop of water from whence it came.

  3. Physical laws apply all the time, to everybody, regardless of intent or intelligence. If the second law of thermodynamics truly prohibited the creation of complexity, then it wouldn't matter whether the complexity is created by "deliberate" acts or by random happenstance- it would be impossible in both cases. It is utterly unbelievable to me that creationist ignoramuses would interpret any physical law to only apply in the absence of deliberate intervention. No other physical laws of physics are interpreted to apply only in the absence of intelligent intervention- does gravity shut off when humans intervene?

This argument has been so thoroughly disproven, so many times in so many ways, that it's almost comical when people keep bringing it up. They might as well just tattoo their foreheads with the words "scientific ignoramus."

"By taking a random mixture of elements and analysing the probability of elements randomly forming into the correct combinations and orientations to make a simple amino acid, I can show that it is probabilistically impossible for the simplest amino acid to form, never mind the first living cell. Therefore, a Creator must have formed the first organisms, if not all of them."

This argument is invalid for the following reasons:

  1. Spontaneous formation of amino and fatty acids has been observed in the laboratory, by subjecting an atmosphere of hydrogen, water vapour, ammonia and methane to electrical discharges and ultraviolet radiation. This simulates primeval Earth environmental conditions, therefore it is an observed fact, and not subject to debate.

  2. Chemical reactions are not random! Elements only bond in certain combinations. Light a match in a cloud of hydrogen and oxygen, and countless trillions upon trillions of hydrogen and oxygen atoms will react to form H2O. Not H8O, and not H5O, but H2O. Purely random combinatorics are a completely invalid way of modelling chemical reactions.

  3. The first living cell did not have to form from raw materials. It would have formed from more primitive components such as RNA, which was proposed many years ago as the first self-replicating molecule. It was even experimentally found to have catalytic capabilities for adding new nucleotides to the end of the chain or removing them, leading to the term "RNA World" to describe the origins of life. But even if RNA is not the candidate we're looking for, there is certainly no need to assume that the first organic self-replicators would have been full-blown single-celled organisms. The early self-replicators (such as RNA, if it was indeed the first self-replicator) would not have left fossils.

  4. This entire attack is a red herring, because evolution theory and abiogenesis (the formation of organic self-replicators from simpler organic materials) are two completely different theories. Lumping them together is just as fallacious as lumping evolution theory with Big Bang theory. The process of evolution is heritable change in populations over multiple generations. Because the process of evolution requires multiple generations to occur, it cannot possibly happen before the first living organism! It doesn't kick in until after the first living organism already exists! Even if abiogenesis could be disproved, evolution theory would still be valid.

I should also note that this argument is generally coupled with the fallacious reasoning that "anything we don't understand is proof of divine intervention." Poorly understood phenomena are not invalidations of science- they are opportunities for scientific investigation. If we treat every gap in our understanding as proof of divine intervention, we would be no better than the tribal primitives who attributed divine intervention to everything from solar eclipses to rain. Visit the Probability page if you want to know more.

"Some older species fossils can be found on top of newer fossils. This inconsistency in your so-called 'progressionism' proves that creation theory is correct, since it means that all species were created at the same time."

More bad science, since this only occurs with animal remains that are on the surface. What happens is that severe erosion or a geological upheaval can occasionally expose strata bearing fossils, and of course, when Skippy the Dog runs away and dies near these old fossils, the "Young Earth Creationist" crowd immediately interprets this as disproof of the entire fossil record, the entire field of geology, the age of the Earth, etc.

As usual, their argument is based on ignorance of proper scientific method. This evidence would be disproof of the fossil record if it was impossible to rationalize its existence with that record. However, that is simply not the case. Geologists can examine patterns in the rock to determine whether a region is old or new, cross-cut, the result of upheaval, etc. It is the creationists who will look at a region, assume its age without using proper methodology, and then use fossil findings in that region to "disprove" geology and evolution theory.

"Evolution can explain changes in a species, but where does a whole new species come from? Speciation is the downfall of Evolution Theory!"

This is another case of creationists projecting their own pseudoscientific attitudes onto evolution theory. In this case, they are predisposed to believe that the creation of a species is a sudden, dramatic event at some fixed moment in time. One moment there's species A, and then the next moment there's species B. Much as God created Man from dust, and Eve from Adam's rib, they imagine that "evolutionists" describe evolution creating a man directly from an ape. But evolution theory does not work that way.

Speciation is not a sudden, miraculous transformation from one species to another. The way creationists envision evolution theory, a pregnant female ape went into labour one day and a human being popped out! It is a gross understatement to say that this is a misrepresentation of the truth. In reality, evolution theory merely proposes that a great many small changes eventually caused an animal population to become intersterile with its ancestors.

Of course, this would mean that there should be fossil evidence of various intermediate stages between successful species, and there is. Naturally, creationists explain all of the evidence away by pointing the finger at their favourite whipping boy: the global conspiracy of evil scientists, who work tirelessly to cover up the truth and fabricate false evidence. These people watch "X-Files" too damned much.

"I know we've observed micro-evolution, but what about macro-evolution? There is no evidence for macro-evolution!"

The creationist invention of the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution" is a good example of how they try to mutilate the terms of science to their own advantage. Biologists do not differentiate between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, any more than mathematicians differentiate between micro-addition and macro-addition.

Their argument that there is no evidence for "macroevolution" is ridiculous because "macroevolution" is simply the result of adding a lot of "microevolution" together, and "microevolution" is, by their own admission, completely supported by various forms of evidence.

The other problem for this argument is that there actually is evidence to directly support what they describe as "macroevolution", and it's called "the fossil record". It's evidence because it is consistent with prediction. Of course, that's not enough for the creationists- they demand direct observation of massive evolutionary change in living animals, even though they know that we would have to observe living animals for millions of years in order to obtain the evidence they seek. Can you see the problem with this demand? It's pretty obvious- they are deliberately asking for a form of evidence which is impossible to obtain (millions of years of direct observation), and ignoring a form of evidence (the fossil record) which is relatively easy to obtain.

The universe operates on tiny processes, affecting tiny particles, which add up in tremendous numbers to cause large changes. If someone is going to claim that a slow, steady process cannot create large-scale changes given sufficient time, he had better provide some evidence and reasoning, rather than simply stating it as a fact and demanding impossible forms of evidence to disprove it. Are we to assume that all gradual processes eventually hit "brick walls" and stop, for mysterious and unknown reasons?

Do we question tectonic plate theory on the basis that we've observed small-scale tectonic plate movement but not large-scale tectonic plate movement? Do we insist that no one should believe in tectonic plate theory until we've been able to observe it for millions of years, so we can see long-distance movements firsthand? Do we deny the possibility of large-scale rock erosion because we've only seen small scale rock erosion? Why would a gradual process like tectonic plate movement, rock erosion, or evolution suddenly stop after an arbitrary length of time? What would make it stop? Why make this ridiculous distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution?" Where is the line drawn between the two? What causes the barrier? These are questions that the creationists don't attempt to ask or answer, because like O.J. Simpson's defense lawyers, they're not serious about uncovering the truth. They just want to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of a gullible audience.

The "microevolution vs macroevolution" argument is an example of creationists projecting their own mentality onto evolution, and then attacking the resulting strawman, ironically, for the very aspects that come from creationism. Creationism describes separate and distinct species: "each according to its kind". Creationists therefore make the same assumption: species are separate, indivisible, and disconnected. When they project this mentality onto evolution, they run into an obvious problem: there is no way for the process of evolution to "jump" over the invisible "barrier" between species. The problem is that they are assuming that this barrier exists! The terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are not found in biology; they are creationist inventions. Gradual changes eventually add up, and can turn one species into two, or they can cause a species to change so much that it becomes a distinct species from its predecessors.

As a thought experiment, consider human beings. It is generally assumed that any male/female pair of healthy human beings can produce children. But biological reproduction is a complex process, and it requires great genetic commonality. We know that two modern human beings can produce children, but what about a modern woman and a man from ten thousand years ago? What about a modern woman and a man from fifty thousand years ago? Is there still enough genetic commonality? Species are not delineated by distinct, clear boundaries. Rather, they are defined by intersterility and overt physical characteristics, and there is no "barrier" between species for the process of evolution to hurdle.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: Scully
Well gosh, PW, looks like you've got yourself a date for the weekend. PH was too slow! ;)

All in good time, my dear.

501 posted on 03/16/2002 2:24:01 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: longshadow
Not to worry; he has "Plato the Platypus" to keep him company, just as medved has "Splifford" the ASCII bat.

Darn, I step away from my computer for one evening and look what I'm confronted with. Well, once you go monotreme, you never go back, or so they say.

502 posted on 03/16/2002 2:27:26 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: general_re
We don't do it to change the opposition. We do it to prove to the lurkers that not all conservatives are a bunch of scientifically-ignorant Bible thumpers. The victories are not on the screen but in the minds of those who never even post.
503 posted on 03/16/2002 3:10:44 AM PST by Junior
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To: Piltdown_Woman
Your dating yourself.

Which is perfectly alright, as long as you do it in private and wash your hands afterward.

504 posted on 03/16/2002 3:17:08 AM PST by Junior
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To: gore3000
Ahem. Straw-man? Sort of like the argument you just made? I don't see evolutionists attempting to get creationism taught in schools under the rubric "creation science."
505 posted on 03/16/2002 3:24:49 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
"I don't see evolutionists attempting to get creationism taught in schools under the rubric "creation science."

What a bunch of blather! You don't even think when you type. Of course atheistic evolutionists would not want anything to do with creation taught in schools. That is why they are fighting those who wish to show that evolution has more holes than swiss cheese out of the schools.

It is interesting that evolution is the only "science" which goes to court to force schools to teach it. Real science wins by persuasion, evolution needs scummy lawyers to force itself upon the populace.

BTW - I am still waiting for proof of macro-evolution from the evolutionist crowd. Have been waiting for over a year for it.

506 posted on 03/16/2002 4:08:06 AM PST by gore3000
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To: VadeRetro
Your catastrophic version of events can't have happened. I answered you with links that address all your points and raise other issues, like Venus's thick crust.

As I have noted, the thick crust is an assumption amongst some researchers and nothing more and absolutely cannot be seen as any sort of an answer to the obvious conclusions to be drawn from the albedo and ir flux data.

One fairly official description of the situation resides here. The main relevant paragraph is (entirely as I have described previously) as follows:

Meanwhile, Mackwell?s rock strength experiments did little to help resolve the controversy, because as he put it the results cannot "distinguish between models in which topography . . . is dynamically supported by upwelling of magma plumes . . . and those in which topography is supported by a thick lithosphere," or between "the effective cessation of tectonic activity about 500 My ago . . . or a global resurfacing event at about the same time" (Mackwell and others 1995, p212, 213). More recently Ellen Stofan and a colleague, Suzanne Smrekar, have suggested that coronae?"circular annuli of fractures and ridges" (see Figure 3)?are formed by magma upwelling, that some may still be active and that they could account for as much as 25% of Venus' heat loss (Smrekar and Stofan 1997, p1289). Even so, the question of whether Venus is geologically dead or simply dormant, or even if the crust is thin or thick, remains to be answered. [Readers interested in the latest information are encouraged to obtain a copy of Venus II: Geology, Geophysics, Atmosphere, and Solar Wind Environment, edited by S. W. Bougher, D. M. Hunten and R. J. Phillips, and published by the University of Arizona Press, November 1997 (ISBN: 0816518300).]

In other words, as I have noted, it is entirely plausible that topography may simply be supported by present subsurface activity, i.e. it may be being thrown up faster or at least as fast as it can melt back down. Again, this is a planet with a surface temperature at which lead melts. I mean, most people think frying eggs on the sidewalk in Austin Texas is a neat trick, but melting lead on the sidewalk is the whole next level of things.

507 posted on 03/16/2002 4:12:55 AM PST by medved
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To: gore3000
Go back to post 365. I know you hate having to refer to another thread but you're in luck as this one is right smack dab in the middle of this thread!
508 posted on 03/16/2002 4:16:59 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
"We do it to prove to the lurkers that not all conservatives are a bunch of scientifically-ignorant Bible thumpers."

Go ahead and tell us how you are not an atheist.

Evolution is not science, it is pseudo-science, it is pop-science. Anyone who has bothered to read Darwin (and I doubt that many evos have been able to read through his drivel) would see that there is absolutely no science in it, no proof of anything. It is just an incoherent medieval bestiary with a lot of "just so" stories.

509 posted on 03/16/2002 4:17:48 AM PST by gore3000
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To: gore3000
I am not an atheist. Neither do I close my eyes to the evidence in front of me simply because it is at odds with an untenable interpretation of the Bible.
510 posted on 03/16/2002 5:20:15 AM PST by Junior
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To: Scully
Every geologist I know prefers to say "billion years ago" or "billion years before present" for the abbreviation "Ga".

Don't go Ga-ga on me! You linked the page, I just quoted it. "Ga" looks like short for "gazillion."

511 posted on 03/16/2002 6:17:16 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: medved
This, from your source, on the scholarship of Dr. Walt Brown in citing references from standard scientific literature:

The reference goes on to underscore that this indicates that the lithosphere must be very strong to continue to support the mountains for millions of years, which refutes the second of Brown’s conclusions. We will examine this in more detail shortly, but for now it is important to point out how Brown misuses his own references.
Moral: abuse not thy quote sources.

Your source contains a convincing demonstration that the crust can be as little as 15km thick. That helps you a little, but 15km is still 9.3 miles. And would a crust that thin sustain the big craters Venus has that didn't flood with magma?

And then there's this:

The result is that the current atmosphere, while probably billions of years old, did not form until after the surface crust had formed, hence its current high temperature would have been no barrier to the formation of a solid surface.
The atmosphere, billions of years old, is younger than that crust, whatever its thickness. Billions of years old is a bit wrong for you, isn't it? I do believe you have been cafeteria shopping your sources, taking only what works for you.

Am I being picky? You don't like the astronomical observations of the 19th century because you think they hurt your case and besides, they're so primitive. But you like the minor irregularities in the observations from the time of Ashurbanipal* because they help your case.

A really useful theory doesn't pick one or two points and try to just do them better, overall picture be damned. You have to fit all the data better, or at least do a better overall job than the currently reigning model.

*Ashurbanipal, King of Assyria (629-626 BC). About halfway back to the 3000 BC Sumerians who made crudely similar if less quantitative observations of Venus. He's far later than even the latest date (circa 1450 BC, but it might have been 200 years earlier) for the explosion of Thera. 1450 is also IIRC the date Velikovsky uses in W.I.C. for his own curious catastrophe.

512 posted on 03/16/2002 6:36:45 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
1450 is also IIRC the date Velikovsky uses in W.I.C. for his own curious catastrophe.

Well, there you have it ... evos making up facts to suit their case. No one anywhere believes Velikovsky was alive in 1450, therefore he couldn't have had "his own curious catastrophe" then. You slimers make me sick with your lies and distortions.

513 posted on 03/16/2002 7:06:04 AM PST by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs
You slimers make me sick with your lies and distortions.

All: Help! G3K has possessed Gumlegs!

514 posted on 03/16/2002 7:15:09 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Where am I? What happened? Oh, Auntie Em, I've had the most curious dream ...
515 posted on 03/16/2002 7:29:25 AM PST by Gumlegs
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To: VadeRetro
The billion-year-old atmosphere is another assumption, Reep, just like the thick crust.

A short while ago, you were claiming that the thick crust was a reason for rejectino the clear implication of the albedo and ir flux data, but now you can see that the thick crust is basically just a theory, and nobody has ever done any real seismic readings on Venus and nobody really knows or can do more than guess how thick the crust is.

Nonetheless, you still assume that some sort of a big picture of data refutes Velikovsky so cleanly that none of these little details really matters.

Why don't you name another part of the "big picture", Reep; tell me which piece of the picture you'd like to see me demolish next.

516 posted on 03/16/2002 8:05:10 AM PST by medved
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To: medved
Why don't you name another part of the "big picture", Reep; tell me which piece of the picture you'd like to see me demolish next.

Try .5 gig-year-old large, non-magma filled craters.

Do you understand that page? I mean, you linked it. Why is the atmosphere "just an assumption?"

A better question. Why is it younger than the crust? Because if it had been there all along, at the modern (or some primordial higher temperature), the crust could not have cooled rapidly enough to solidify even with 4.5 billion years to do in. Too low of a thermal gradient. You said it yourself, "hot enough to melt lead."

You don't have enough time since a few millenia BC. That's what I can't make you see. Your sources kill you, but you only lift the paragraph or two you want.

517 posted on 03/16/2002 8:30:46 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Your sources kill you, but you only lift the paragraph or two you want

Why do I get the feeling I'm trying to conduct a debate with a weasel?

First you break into a conversation between myself and another person claiming I'm all wet about the albedo and infrared flux evidence; then when you get shot down in flames on that one, you claim that the albedo and ir evidence has to be tossed because of the thick crust (i.e. you parrot Jim Acker's argument); next when you see that one also get shot down in flames, you come back with more vague big-picture stuff.

The big picture is made up of those kinds of details, Reep.

518 posted on 03/16/2002 8:36:37 AM PST by medved
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To: VadeRetro
Why is the atmosphere "just an assumption?"

The age of the atmosphere. The atmosphere itself is definitely there.

519 posted on 03/16/2002 8:42:41 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
Go back to post 365. I know you hate having to refer to another thread

No Junior, if you have a refutation for something I say - you look for it in your Ultimate Pile of Garbage (you never seem to be able to find anything there yourself, don't know why you expect others to do so) and post it here. I don't ask you to refute your own arguments, don't ask me to do so. The utter laziness and arrogance of your even trying to do so is unspeakable.

520 posted on 03/16/2002 8:44:17 AM PST by gore3000
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