Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
What is it you are trying to say?
Just read the book before you review it.
Dead is dead.
All the good works in the world will not bring back the 3000 or so who died in the WTC at the will of a Judeo-Christian Religion.
You guys seem to think death of the physical body is the end of it all.
Then surely you have some data to prove it.
that it's NOT that Christians just can't accept the fact that we humans are not really very important,
but that NON-Christians just can't accept the idea that we humans ARE really very important!
Probably not. Nostradamus and Revelations are ok for cocktail party conversations and laughs but they are really not worth spending much time actually thinking about.
Prove otherwise.
I'd stack my familiarity with the Bible against yours, any day of the week.
You Have found the meaning of life!
We've had fun trotting out views and thoughts and now, finally, the year has gotten back into sync. I suppose the others will appear shortly, having arrived back at their EMPLOYERS computers (with their fast DSL hookups)
See ya later! Elsie
No, I am not in heaven. I am at the banquet. The "banquet" is a relationship with the King of Kings, Jesus Christ. You don't have to wait until after you die to know the sweet, satisfying fellowship that comes from G-d. That is the "prize" that Paul the Apostle was always referring to. Once you become a Christian, you have this fellowship. Some take more advantage of it than others, like some enjoy the wonderful friendship of their spouses more than others. But it is available to all.
Come to the Table.
Shalom.
2) OR, PERHAPS you have one of the strangest brains and mental habits this psychologist has ever connected with [no real evidence of that].
3) I don't consider my faith remotely blind. It is based on considerable evidence and tested a number of different ways over more than 35-40 years or so.
4) I suspect an MRI or PET or even some simple electrodes attached to various neural pathways would reveal that you indeed have some ASSUMPTIONS to varying degrees in various contingencies--ASSUMPTIONS which I would equate with my notions of faith/trust. I strongly suspect such electrodes, MRI; PET scans would indicate varying degrees of faith/trust depending on the scenarios presented to you. If you are indeed human instead of a robot, I can't imagine that you are remotely as detachedly serene, intellectual, cerebral as you hold yourself out to be.
ArGee: If you will answer two questions for me, then I will answer the burning issue of those who never had a chance to hear the name of Jesus for you. I will answer it from the Bible so that you will know it is Christian doctrine.
1. Are you an atheist?
2. If I answer that question, will you believe in G-d?
discostu: Yes I'm an atheist. And whether or not I'll believe depends on the answer.
I will not hold you to your word, but G-d may. I will merely keep my word and answer your question from the Bible. I use the NIV on-line in case such distinctions are important to you.
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,The "spirits in prison" are those who were dead before Christ was born. Peter references the days of Noah - a code for the days before there was any Christ so that no one could be righteous. If you read the rest of the passage you will see the connection between the Ark, which saved Noah's family, and Christ, which saves mankind. Clearly, Christ went to the land of the dead and preached the message before he left the tomb. Those who have no way to hear the message on earth will be given the message before they have to make the choice. I don't fully understand all the places that the dead dwell - there is still controversy in the Church about things like purgatory - but I believe that Jesus will guarantee everyone a chance to hear, just as He did those who died before He was born in time.
As an indirect proof:
Luke 16:22-23 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.The rich man was in hell, far away from Abraham. The obvious point is that Abraham was in heaven. Yet Abraham died long before Christ was born. Christ Himself told us that Abraham would be in heaven. Therefore, Christ himself promised a way for those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel while alive.
As purely anecdotal evidence, I once heard a woman speak who was raised in an Islamic nation where Christian testimony was illegal. She claimed to have heard the Gospel in a dream and to have converted to Christianity long before she met a Christian. You can not judge the validity of her claim, of course, but I can at least say that I never learned any reason why a woman raised as a Muslim would have made that up.
I hope this helps. I surely pray that this was the only stumbling block keeping you from the table.
Shalom.
There are areas where your explaination fails, but I won't bore you with them because, if you've heard the apologist's explainations for why Jesus didn't return in their lifetimes, you have heard my explainations for why Jesus was surely dead and not stolen alive from the tomb.
It is clear that you want to believe your explaination. It will be clear to you and other athiests that I want to believe mine. Therefore, we won't accomplish much by rehashing the old ground.
I'll await your response to my proof that those who never heard of Jesus don't go to hell without a chance. After that, if you still want to discuss this, FReepmail me.
Shalom.
That there is no savior but G-d:
Hoseah 13:4 "But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.
And a little weaker - different translations than the NIV make it stronger:
Isaiah 45:21 Declare what is to be, present it-- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.
There are many references in the Tanak to G-d our Savior and how a man can not save himself. Let me know if you wish to see some of those, or simply read Psalms for a large number.
BTW, I believe most, if not all books, have to with God and his ways. Few parts of the Bible inspire me with awe and reverence for God, more than James Gleick's Chaos, Steven Levy's Artificial Life, the poems of Rudyard Kipling, and the Dames Point Bridge in Jacksonville. For the last 3, if we are created as images of God and we can do what is portrayed and Levy's book and created by Kipling and the bridge, imagine what God can do. Gleick's book clues me in somewhat more to that.
I respect how these inspire you more than the Bible. However, if you were going to do research on the life of Abraham Lincoln, would you only read exciting stories about Lincoln, or would you also read boring biographies? The Bible is G-d's own Word as to who He is. I will admit that you can learn a lot about Him from His creation, but He is the definitive Word. Study other things, by all means, but everything else you study will be gone when He restores the Universe as He promised. Everything you study about Him will be study that lasts forever.
I myself used to hate reading the Bible. The more I got to know Him through reading it, the more I saw of Him in it, and the more I loved it. Some parts are still boring. I hate reading geneologies. Yet, even there, sometimes He wispers things to me about Himself.
Shalom.
It is my opinion that you can't make G-d do anything at all. He doesn't need you. You will add nothing to Heaven that He can not provide without you. If it weren't for His love for you, you would have started lost and remained lost.
Are you aware of what the Rabbis say about why G-d chose Israel?
Shalom.
Psalm 34:8 Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.
John 1:39 "Come," he replied, "and you will see."
The Tanak and the Brit Chadashah always extend the invitation. Learn all you can, then come and see.
I am sure that G-d would be happy to wrestle with you for all eternity if it would make you happy.
Shalom.
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