Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians

ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

[Elsie]

more pain and suffering

Is what you said. This asserts that the religions 'good works' were over shadowed by the 'bad stuff'.

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You made a statement, apparently of fact, and I just wondered if you could back it up; to Luvit's standard.

[azhenfud]

Sorry, I just saw your #1009. Guess I was late on the keys, again. LOL.
Az

[Elsie]

I will not do that here as that would be rude.

Oh... go ahead.

People have been rude to me before, and, Lord knows, it SURELY can't take up as much space on JimRob's disks as all of the proceeding ~991 other replies.

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I'm sure that there are others here that would be willing to read it.

[Elsie]

Once, just once more, under the watchful eyes of the cameras of CNN would do just fine.

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Well, just wait. THIS may happen in your lifetime.......

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Revelation 10:11 - 11:12

11.  Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."

 

 1.  I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
 2.  But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
 3.  And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
 4.  These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
 5.  If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
 6.  These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
 7.  Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
 8.  Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
 9.  For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
 10.  The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
 11.  But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
 12.  Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

 

 

[week 71]

I don't think most of the disciples were in on the fix, I'm not even sure all of the prophets were in on it (Judas clearly wasn't, which is why Jesus had to tell him that all was taken care of). And something clearly went wrong (I'm guessing the spear wound eventually proved fatal). According to Jesus he was going to be back during the prophetlifetime

It is odd how many people today, speaking a different language, being from an entirely different culture and two thousand years later claim to know more about the life of Jesus, than those who walked with Him, spoke His language,and were from the same culture.

As for the sacrifices the believers went through, if that proves a religion's veracity then we'd all better convert to Scientology

I have to agree that sacrifices do not prove the truth of claims..ie the Branch Davidians. It would be difficult however to find men to die for a cause which they knew was a lie. Then their is Paul who publicly killed Christians who changed his mind claiming he saw the risen Lord. I do not know much about Scientology so I would do well to not comment.

[Elsie]

Given the fact that Jesus' legs weren't broken (1) it should have taken him days to die on the cross (broken legs makes it much harder to breath in that position because it's distending your diaphram muscles, BTW leg breaking as an act of mercy was in Roman law) there's immediately a good chance that he was alive. There's the spear wound of course (which noice, got the centurion in trouble(2) , more evidence that certain people didn't want Jesus to die). Of course then there's the fact that they cut him down and stuck him in a tomb. According to Roman law (3) the crucified person is to stay on the cross until their bones fall off. Now, if Jesus gets better from that only idiots aren't believers.

I'm not sure who you're classifying as ignorant fishermen but it shouldn't be the prophets. Most of them were doing pretty well in the world (well enough for the crucifixion to take place in the estate of one of them(4) . As for whether they could fool the leaders how difficult that is depends on a lot of things. Jesus said he'd be back within their generation(5) . He didn't come back, something went wrong, whether yo believe or not it's clear that things didn't go according to plan, the apologists have confronted it and I'm not challenging their explanation just pointing it out (note it is possible that Jesus and a few followers just plain bailed, certain legends and archeological finds have been put together that show a group of early Christian went east, hooked through Persia and settled in India,(6) where a group that didn't know they were Christian but were was found during the missionary years of colonialism). If he was dead it's easy, they were in the desert, I live in the desert, you give me over night to transport and bury a body and the only way it's getting found is if somebody builds something there, of course if I seed it with lime they won't even find it then. Even alive it's not that hard to hide in the desert, as the Bedouins taught the Germans in WWI.

Here's my base scenario:
Clearly some form of fix was in, this crucifixion didn't happen right, it wasn't on a road into Jerusalem, the public was far away(7)  , the executioner expressed sympathy but didn't act mercifully, the victim wasn't left up there litterally to rot.
Just as clearly something went wrong, the spear wound screwed everything up. Now it was, arguably, a belly wound, belly wounds are almostalways fatal without modern medical attention, but they take a long time to die from (they're fatal because they usually release toxins from the stomack or intestines which slowly poison the wounded person, IMHO one of the worst ways to go).
I'm guessing Jesus wasn't dead when he went into the tomb. At some point that night somebody cracks the tomb open to get him somewhere to recover. Son of God or not, dead or just wounded, you'll probably need some time to recover from a day like that.
At this juncture I think this is where things go way off track. Jesus dies and now the few that were in on the fix (note, these folks still could believe his devineness and be working on something like this, recent events show that people will still follow a religious leader even when the veil has been lifted a little) got some problems. They believe him, and are figuring that he'll probably be back anyway, but it's not going to go the way he outlined. Triumphantly walking back into Jerusalem in a few weeks is now right out. What to do?
Have somebody open the tomb in public. Even when I was young I was always suspicious about this. Why open the tomb(8) . In the desert bodies stink, they stink bad. 3 days in an above ground tomb would not leave things pleasant, seeing the body would not improve one's faith (unless one was really messed up in the head), and the vomitting that would happen when the smell hits would greatly impede one's ability to even see the body. Ah, but if you already know there isn't a body it's a no brainer. Open the tomb, exclaim how it's empty, ah he is risen. Now what you have is a Jesus that still "walking the earth" but nobody can see him.

At least that's my hyper cynical explaination.

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Where to start?

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(1) . John Chapter 19

  31.  Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
 32.  The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
 33.  But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
 34.  Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
 35.  The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
 36.  These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken, (9) "
 37.  and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced." (10)

 

(2) . I do not find this happening.......

Matthew 27:54
 54.  When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son  of God!"

 

(3) . Maybe, according to Roman law, you may be right.  But Pilate states that He had broken NO Roman law!

 Matthew 27:22-24
 22.  "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.   They all answered, "Crucify him!"
 23.  "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.   But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
 24.  When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

 

Mark 15:13-15
 13.  "Crucify him!" they shouted.
 14.  "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.   But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
 15.  Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

 

Luke 23:13-16
 13.  Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people,
 14.  and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him.
 15.  Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death.
 16.  Therefore, I will punish him and then release him. "

 

John 18

 38.  "What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.

 

John 19:6-8
 6.  As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"   But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."
 7.  The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."
 8.  When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid,

 

(4) . On an ESTATE???

Matthew 27:33
 33.  They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).

 

Mark 15:22
 22.  They brought Jesus to the place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull).

 

Luke 23:33-35
 33.  When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left.
 34.  Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."  And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
 35.  The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

 

John 19:17-18
 17.  Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).
 18.  Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle.

 

(5) .

2 Thessalonians 2

 

 1.  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
 2.  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
 3.  Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness  is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

 

(6) . Do you believe THESE things and NOT the compliation of many OTHER writers? (The New Testement)

 

(7) . Far away?

Luke 23
 35.  The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

 

Luke 23:48-49
 48.  When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.
 49.  But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.

 

 

John 19:25-27
 25.  Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
 26.  When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son,"
 27.  and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

 

(8) .

 

Matthew 27:58
 58.  Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him.

 

Mark 15:43-45
 43.  Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body.
 44.  Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died.
 45.  When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.

 

Luke 23:52
 52.  Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body.

 

Matthew 27:64-66
 64.  So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."
 65.  "Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."
 66.  So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

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(9) . Exodus 12:46
 46.  "It must be eaten inside one house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones.

 

Numbers 9:12
 12.  They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations.

 

Psalms 34:20
 20.  he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

Jesus is OUR passover lamb.  Read about it in Exodus 12, Matthew 26:17-30, John 1:29-36

 

(10) . Zechariah 12:10
 10.  "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit  of grace and supplication. They will look on  me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

 

[Elsie]

I have to agree that sacrifices do not prove the truth of claims..ie the Branch Davidians.

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Well, it's only been a couple of years and I sure don't think the DB's 'sacrificed' themselves!

[week 71]

Well, it's only been a couple of years and I sure don't think the DB's 'sacrificed' themselves!

Your point is well understood and taken. Perhaps a better example next time.

[ArGee]

Od Avenu Chai!

I will not debate your points with you. You set yourself up to be better than my equal, but you are going in a very differen direction.

There is a lot I can say to a Jew, even one who believes as firmly as you do. And, while I do not speak Hebrew, I have friends who do and help me with my understanding of the original Hebrew in their first century settings. If you want, I could see if one of them would "speak" with you.

But, to go into the specific issues with you personally would distract from the thread. Your point has already been made. If you want to start another thread, or get something started in FReepMail, I will respond. But I don't think it would help anyone else on this thread but you and me.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

I understand now why you have a lower standard for what you call evidence than do I.

The Bible is a very different kind of book than The Illiad. If that is not evident to you, then there isn't anything I'm going to say to convince you of it. Literary study is a discipline unto itself. I am not a master, but I have a rudimentary understanding of some of the types of literature.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

The only place I've ever seen a claim of that was in a book that is no different than The Iliad. Do you have some independently verifiable evidence to back up this claim about your alleged god killing the firstborn of a nation? OOOPS! I forgot, you first must present that independently verifiable evidence that this alleged god exists before you can convince me of the second condition.

I have a question that I have never had the time to research. Perhaps you will research it for me as a way to prove that the events in Exodus did not happen.

Egypt was the greatest empire of its time. So was Rome. I know why Rome fell. Why did Egypt? Do you know? Do you have time to find out?

Obviously, I don't have authority to assign homework to you. But, since you claim to have an open mind, I would think this question would be of interest to you. I'm not going to begin to suggest that you won't find an answer. I'm just curious what that answer will be.

Of course, it really isn't so important that you believe G-d did it. It was important for the Egyptians to believe it so they would not chase after the Israelites.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

Ahhhhhhh, so now you agree with me and The Bible is nothing more than literature, no different than The Iliad. I'm glad we came to some form of agreement here!

I'm presuming you know how to use Free Republic well enough to follow our thread back. If you do, then you will know that when I was referring to literary devices, I was not referring to the Bible.

If you can not see that, then you really should get a guide for your studies. It would explain a lot about why you keep confusing The Illiad and The Bible.

Just out of curiosity, do you read The Illiad the same way you read a math text? You did say you read every book the same as every other book, didn't you?

Shalom.

[ArGee]

Oh. I thought we were talking about Christianity. Christianity is the Club 54 for those who want to go to heaven.

Wrong again.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

I apologize for my mistake.

No problem. Easy mistake.

Shalom.

[RobFromGa]

If the rock worshippers are correct then what will I, as a Christian, have lost out on when I die?

Of course you will have missed out on the Rock God's heaven, and be relegated to the Rock God's hell. Do you not understand this simple point?

[RobFromGa]

I'm not sure we have any societies, untouched by religion, to compare with.

You are correct that it is almost universal for humans throughout history to invent religions that explain the unanswerable questions of life nad give life meaning. Of course, every culture invents a different God, no two of them the same, and therein lies the rub.

Even the most devout extremist religious nut only has a small chance of having grown up being exposed to the "right" God/religion out of the thousands that have existed. You might actually be making the right God more angry by following a competing God than by choosing to stay on the sidelines and follow no God. But most religious people think that everything they believe is so blindingly obvious...

[Iowegian]

In any case there is no denying that these religions have bestowed great suffering upon the world over the past 3000 years.

No, it's a people problem. People do evil things to each other. That's why there are religions. Like guns, religions don't kill, people do.

[Elsie]

This has NOTHING to do with this thread.........
but,
Do you happen to know a Larry Lee that grew up around Villa Rica and entered the Air Force around '59-'60 timeframe??

[1L]

Re: determining if a person is good or bad.

God makes the determination. Our lives are an open book.

But how do you know what God is going to decide? How do you know how to live your life so that God will consider you "good?" The Old Testament doesn't give guidance to every situation.

The Jews in the gospel of John, 8th chapter, were ready to stone a woman caught committing adultry. They were basing that off the Jewish law and tradition. Would you have stoned her? If not, why not? And answer for me whether God would consider you "good" if you did one or the other. You either fail to follow the law (if you don't stone her) or you participate in a killing, which some might consider murder since you are without the authority of law (if you do stone her). The murder would clearly violate another law.

I don't have this problem with a professed faith in Jesus Christ.

[Jeff Gordon]

Like guns, religions don't kill, people do.

True.