Posted on 04/24/2024 5:47:30 PM PDT by grumpa
Daniel Hummel, in his new book "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism," makes the case that, pop-dispensationalism is still alive and well outside the seminary environment. But, in academic circles there is a noticeable trend of abandonment of dispensationalism―even at Dallas Theological Seminary, the center of the dispensational universe. There are serious problems with the dispensational model, as are being pointed out even by historic premillennialists like Hummel, not to mention every other eschatological camp. More such books are bound to follow.
I find it most curious that Christians seem to find hope in the destruction of the planet, thus eliminating unsaved friends and future progeny from knowing Jesus—and a shiny new earth in which even carnivorous animals take up vegetarianism.
Out of curiosity....do you believe in annihilationism?
Or do you adhere to universalism?
You display no understanding of hermeneutics, Greek, or history.
In other words....you're out of your league.
What exactly are your qualifications to be making your assertions?
#4
.
Thank You.
Chuck....you don't seem to understand how the conversations work in these forums.
Also, recall, it is you who has jumped into the forum throwing accusations of "false teachers", "charlatan", etc. It seems when those terms are applied to you you become triggered.
We don't blindly jump at your beckon call.
When you propose one of the biggest errors I've seen on these forums, that the Second Coming has already happened....be prepared to be questioned.
It's what the Bereans did afterall.
We've also searched the scriptures and find your position, well...let's say false.
You bring no academic rigor to the discussion as I noted in a previous post tonight.
All you bring is what appears to be a self-published book, a website you want everyone to go to, and nothing else.
Just like the reviewer noted of your efforts.
Shall I post it again as a reminder?
Your silence on some key questions is telling.
I'm still awaiting answers to two I posted to you last night, and again tonight, that are far more important than the questions you've raised.
Now, if you find the conversation too much for you...I recommend you retire to a safe space.
This is the playground....and it can be rough for those who come ill-prepared to play.
Out of curiosity....do you believe in annihilationism?
Or do you adhere to universalism?
—> questions that dispensationalists have a difficult time answering.
Again, I point out that if you didn’t have an agenda, you could have found answers to all your questions online.
I also point out you never answered ealgeone’s questions - because you cannnot.
Maximus is getting jealous.
—> Maximus is getting jealous.
He may get dethroned as FR’s leading spammer!
I haven't followed much of this at all, but it seems the poster may be an atheist trying to muddy the water, similar to satan was trying to do with Jesus trying to create doubt. I apologize if I am wrong, but the water certainly is muddy.
Because contrary to your false dilemma, the kingdom which is spiritual,(Jn. 18:36) becomes manifestly physical when the Lord returns at the end of the Trib, with the first resurrection Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" to fight the battle of Armageddon, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:14-15; Jude 1:14-15; cf. Mal. 3:18; Mt 16:27; 19:28; Mt 24:30, 31; 25:31; Lk. 22:20; 2Th 1:7,8; Re 1:7; 5:10; 19:6-20; 20:4) “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Mt. 13:43)
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6)Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (1 Corinthians 15:24-25)
2. Indeed, didn’t Paul teach that believers had already been transferred to the Kingdom? (Colossians 1:13)
Indeed, and also taught that
"...the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1)
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2 Timothy 4:8)
3. Why would Jesus’ kingdom be set up in earthly Jerusalem, even though Paul said earthly Jerusalem was bondage and the old covenant (Galatians 4:24-25) that was passing away (Hebrews 8:13)?
Because Paul said,
"I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27)
4. How can Jesus’ kingdom be physical/earthly when Jesus rejected a physical kingdom in Luke 17:20-21 and John 18:36?
Because the Lord did not reject an physical/earthly kingdom, but only stated that it was now a physical kingdom, and foretold of His future reign in His kingdom on earth.
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)Like as "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15:50) yet believers will have a glorified physical body like that of the Lord, so also the Jerusalem of the 1,000 year millennium will have supernatural aspects, with believers in resurrected bodies reigning under Christ the Lord. Thanks and glory be to God!
. 5. Do you agree with Walvoord and Pentecost that in the millennial kingdom: Jerusalem will be the center of a world government system, national Israel will be exalted, and Gentile nations will be subordinated as Israel’s servants.?
"national Israel?" No one will be saved except by faith, and redeemed Jews and all will worship God like David did, while since some unbelievers will survive the tribulation (Matthew 24:21) then the Lord will rule over such with a rod of Iron.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (Zechariah 14:16-17)
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27)
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:15)And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:1-2)
6. Do you agree with Scofield and Chafer, leading dispensationalists in an earlier generation...the dichotomy between Israel and the church even lasts throughout eternity?
No: all worship the Lord (though unbelievers only go up to worship) in the millennial kingdom, and then:
when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:11-12) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:1-2) And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Revelation 21:27)
7. How can the “millennial” kingdom of God be of the Jews when Jesus himself said that he took the kingdom away from them and gave it to another group who would produce its fruit (Matthew 21:43)? If Jesus took the kingdom from the Jews and gave it to the church, why is there no scripture to show another transfer back to the Jews?
More ignorance. The kingdom is not transferred back to the Jews, but instead believing Jews are grafted into to the kingdom and what is left of Israel shall be converted (see above) when the fullness of Gentiles have entered in.
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in... (Romans 11:18-19) ...if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:24-26)
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (Romans 11:29-32)
8. Isn’t the dispensational idea of separating the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven arbitrary, since the terms are used interchangeably in Scripture (Matthew 3:1-2; Mark 1:14-15)?
I think so, yet there is no kingdom of God without a kingdom of heaven and without a thousand year reign of Christ.
9. Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus will leave his throne and exit heaven to come to earth to establish and earthly rule from another throne in Jerusalem?
See above. Who is ruling and where, till He subdues all enemies? You are limiting God, who can be in Heaven and yet come down to investigate the cry of Sodom.(Gn. 18)
10. If the millennium is literal, why is the number one thousand usually not literal, such as the number of generations to which God keeps his covenants (Deuteronomy 7:9), the number of hills upon which God owns cattle (Psalm 50:10), the number of troops that one Israelite shall chase (Joshua 23:10), etc.?
If the millennium is not literal, why is the number thousand and "a thousand usually literal, such as
Numbers 1:41; Numbers 2:16; Numbers 2:28; Numbers 31:34; Ezra 2:69; ?
And in the NT it is absurd to relegate `"a thousand" to merely being symbolic in
Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6; Revelation 14:20; Revelation 20:2; Revelation 20:4; Revelation 20:6; However, you must actually imagine that the devil has been bound for a 1000 figurative years!
That is all for now at this hour. It is you who have many questions to answer.
Because like criminals of long ago they drive by and blaze away with their machine guns and off they go.
The poster is just driving by stirring the pot. He has no real intention of discussion.
IMHO, that’s a by product of what happens when you depart from the Word.
Because the Lord did not forever reject an physical/earthly kingdom, but only expressed that it was not a physical kingdom, as that of flesh and blood, as mere men, yet foretold (see texts) of His future reign in His kingdom on earth, in which believers with resurrected bodies will reign.
Ping, there is a lot here to review. Thank you for taking the time to present a thorough rebuttal to Gumpa. II Thes. 2 comes to mind, “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.” NIV
+1
Because the Lord did not forever reject an physical/earthly kingdom, but only expressed that it was not a physical kingdom, as that of flesh and blood, as mere men, yet foretold (see texts) of His future reign in His kingdom on earth, in which believers with resurrected bodies will reign.
—
Jesus rightly divided the Word of Truth when he read from Isaiah 61:
“to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor (first mission, spiritual kingdom)
and the day of vengeance of our God,” (second mission, reign on Earth).
Oh, but the preterist position is that this final day of the Lord happened in 70AD., and thus the devil has been bound since and cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more (Revelation 20:3) - can't you tell - and the sounds of musicians and craftsmen are not longer heard at all in Jerusalem, etc. (they all must be deaf), and no more fruits and dainty items, etc. since Jerusalem no longer exists. (Revelation)
Yes, and it is obvious that this coming of the Lord has not come yet, which he has been shown, but like with refuted cultist, more delusion is blithely posted.
Yet Rome herself rejects the literal 1,000 reign of the Lord Jesus, culminating in until the final battle (He puts all enemies under His feet), and opposed recognition of the modern state of Israel, though at least she believes in a final conversion of Jews.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.