WHY I BECAME A PRETERIST

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 10, 2024 | Charles Meek

[grumpa]

With a measure of teeth gnashing, and years of study—I became convinced that the preterist view of eschatology is the correct one. Here are some reasons why.

1. I could no longer ignore, in good conscience, the over 100 time-statements in the New Testament that limit fulfillment of the prophesied events to the lifetimes of the New Testament writers. (There really are over 100 of them.) Preterism 101

2. I looked up every mention in the New Testament of the “last days,” “end,” or “end times” and found that all 19 such mentions are consistent. Without exception, the writers of the New Testament wrote that THEY were living in the last days. So, unless they were false teachers, the last days had to be the end of the old covenant world―not the end of the physical universe. While the new covenant began at the cross, the old covenant ended in finality in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed (Hebrews 8:13).

3. I realized that I was ignorant about what happened in Jerusalem in AD 70―and the theological significance of these events, especially surrounding the destruction of the temple and the sacrificial and priestly systems.

4. I heard some Christians, including pastors, say that “The disciples expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes, but they were simply wrong.” Knowing that the disciples got their views from Jesus himself, and believing in the inerrancy of the Bible, I cannot accept that they were wrong. But it was either they were wrong, or else Christians have misunderstood what the writers meant by Jesus’ Parousia. At least some of the passages about the timing of the Second Coming must have been about Jesus “coming in judgment” against apostate old covenant Israel in AD 70, much like YHWH “came in judgment” against nations in the Old Testament―as preterists teach. That answers the skeptics who said Jesus was a false teacher.

5. I realized that if Jesus and his disciples were wrong about the timing of fulfillment of the prophetic events, the charges against Christianity concerning Jesus being a false teacher would be true. The preterist view is the only one that answers the critics’ charges. Jesus kept his word. He was not a false prophet. There is no need to make excuses for Him or gloss over passages that don’t fit your presuppositions from the echo-chamber.

6. I was interested to discover that Jesus, as well as his disciples, stated that virtually all OLD TESTAMENT prophecy would be completed in their literal generation—that is, the first century (Luke 21:22; Acts 3:24).

7. It became excruciatingly clear that many high-profile preachers, especially dispensationalists, have made glaringly false predictions about the rapture, Second Coming, and the end of the world. These charlatans (yes, that’s a strong but deserved charge) include Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, Benny Hinn, Grant Jeffrey, Jerry Falwell, John Walvoord, Harold Camping, Perry Stone, etc., etc. These men added to false predictions by Christians for 2000 years, making a continuous mockery of Christianity. Something has been very wrong about prophecy. False Prophets

8. I noticed that Christians tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of the daily news events (“newspaper eschatology”)—and have accordingly been making false and embarrassing predictions about the end of the world for 2,000 years. The preterist view restores credibility to Christianity. If they would be reading through the lens of the original audience instead, they would get a different picture.

9. I have heard Christians argue that language such as “moon turning to blood,” “coming on clouds,” “make the heavens tremble,” etc. should be understood literally. I was always skeptical about literalizing these phrases, and my closer investigation revealed that my skepticism was warranted. Such phrases are typical non-literal Hebraic apocalyptic language to describe God’s intervention (usually judgment) on nations in history. Apocalyptic Language

10. I learned that over 130 competent scholars have been identified as teaching that Revelation was written prior to AD 70, and that Revelation is mostly about the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple during the Jewish-Roman War of AD 66-70. Recommended book: Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry.

11. I discovered that there are over 30 passages in Revelation that (a) demand fulfillment soon after being penned, and (b) Revelation does not introduce new concepts, but rather connects the events described there with the same ones mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. Revelation Theme

12. I noticed that objections to preterism are shallow, disjointed, biased, arbitrary, and inconsistent. Objectors are willfully blind about key passages and mostly regurgitate things they have heard from people who have not really studied the issue either. I particularly noticed that my preterist posts on Christian websites were mostly answered with anger and snark, with very little actual substantive biblical exegesis. I find this quite telling.

13. Bible teachers to whom I had been listening could not give meaningful answers to my challenging questions about prophecy. Worse, they seemed less interested in truth, and more interested in defending a presumptive position. I wanted to follow the Shepherd, not the sheep. I wanted to defend God’s Word, not an institution or creed.

14. I was really surprised at how professing conservative Christians take such pains to explain away the obvious in the Bible. They can twist Scripture and think they are doing the Bible a favor. For example, Jesus said “Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place.” We can be sure that “this generation” means the generation to whom Jesus was speaking (and not some distant generation). Why? Because every other mention of “this generation” in the New Testament is clearly about the first-century generation. Study more about Scripture Twisting in this article:

(Share this with your friends to start a good discussion about eschatology!)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> t appears that happened in 66 AD, shortly before the Jews rebelled and the war began. Two historians, a Rabbi and a pagan, recorded eyewitness accounts of an army flying in the clouds over the cities of Israel at that time (I posted the references in a previous post.) Neither would have been influence by the prophecies of Christ.

Sounds wholly inadequate that less than a handful of people witnessed the Second Coming - one of the most important events in history.

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they
see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

[ealgeone]

Might want to check your understanding of the two Greek words and how they’re used in the texts.

[ealgeone]

No Charles…post ALL of your clues for the world to see right here.

Peter, this charlatan is suggesting there will be a “second, Second Coming”. LOL!!

I’d question everything this charlatan says.

[Kalamata]

>>Kalamata, I agree with your point of view in general, perhaps not in every specific detail but I do think we are in the “little season” at the end of the millenial kingdom and that Christ’s reign has been spiritual; then at some near-future time, the visible second coming will take place and we’ll be into the eternal righteous kingdom of God.<<

My hope is that Satan and his evil works are soon destroyed, the dead are resurrected and judged, the nations are healed, and everyone lives happily ever after, like this:

“the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse” — Rev 22:2-3 KJV

“One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.” — Eccl 1:4 KJV

>>I believe what has caused a general uncertainty as to times of prophecy is that various signs and timetables are given for both “end times” and the first set were not followed by a visible return (only the spiritual reign) so while some agree with you and me, others (perhaps a majority) are watching for the first end time that leads into the millenial kingdom.”

The way I understand the scripture, Christ’s return in 66 AD was to gather his elect (the chosen seed of Israel — the small remnant,) and to judge the rest of Israel. See Dan 12:1-2.

The elect — the 144,000 Isrealites (Rev 7, 20:4-6) — have been serving him day and night in his temple since his return.

>>Jesus will sort this out for us and either way things will improve, whichever of the two events is really just ahead, as it seems obvious that “an end time” is approaching given the signs apparent to all.<<

I see different signs than most Christians since I studied the scripture on my own for decades without the influence of pastors or commentators.

I believe that over the past few decades, Satan and his army have been teaching our children to doubt the word of God — the first sin in the Bible — although it began when Darwin corrupted science. That practice became the norm with the removal of prayer from schools and the rise of militant atheism.

>>But the preterist viewpoint just seems devoid of hope for the world, and I refuse to believe this is the eternal fate of humanity, to be living like wild animals in a lawless satanic dystopia. We were told to expect a new earth and I believe it is this earth, purified, so that the standards of heaven (if indeed that exists now somewhere else) can be met here as well. As was always intended for the faithful.<<

I agree. I have had many debates with full preterists over the years. They tend to rely on audience relevance (which I do) and grammatical exegeses (which I do,) but they avoid the grammar in what I believe is one of the most important verses, which is:

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” — Rev 4:1 KJV

According to the grammar of that verse, John was seeing the future from that point forward, which contradicts one of the most important doctrines of full preterism — that Satan was kicked out of heaven at the cross (See John 12:31, Rev 12.) Rev 4:1 indicates Satan was cast out of heaven after John wrote the Revelation and before the destruction of Jerusalem, during which time he made war with the early Christians:

“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time... And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” — Rev 12:12, 17 KJV

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” — Rev 3:10 KJV

Under that scenario, Satan was bound when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed — when the power of the holy people, the Law, was taken away (Daniel 12:7) — at which time the “thousand-year” reign began (Rev 20:2-7.)

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>>>It appears that happened in 66 AD, shortly before the Jews rebelled and the war began. Two historians, a Rabbi and a pagan, recorded eyewitness accounts of an army flying in the clouds over the cities of Israel at that time (I posted the references in a previous post.) Neither would have been influence by the prophecies of Christ.<<<<

>>Sounds wholly inadequate that less than a handful of people witnessed the Second Coming - one of the most important events in history.<<

I will agree that it was the most important event in history to the faithful of Israel, and the worst to the unfaithful Israelites.

>>“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.”<<

Another way to interpret the Greek is:

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the [land of Israel] mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” — Mat 24:30

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>Might want to check your understanding of the two Greek words and how they’re used in the texts.<<

That is not very helpful. If you disagree perhaps you will find the time to point me to the error of my ways.

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> Another way to interpret the Greek is:

Here is a literal Greek translation, which contradicts what you added…

Matthew 24:29–31

“And then shall be seen the attesting miracle of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the people of the earth shall beat their breasts in anguish, and they shall see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

“And He shall send on a mission His angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together in one place His chosen-out ones from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of heaven to the other.

• This is an event seen worldwide by “all the peoples of the world.”
• Jews are gathered from across the world.

Neither happened during the destruction of Jerusalem.

[Kalamata]

>>CLUE #2: In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus ties the passing of heaven and earth with the passing of the Law. So, if the Law has already passed away and we are now under Grace, we must be in the new heaven and new earth now!<<

John gave us a clue: “no more sea”

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.” — Rev 21:1 KJV

The physical temple was divided into three parts which the Hebrews nicknamed: 1) the heaven (the Holy of Holies); 2) the earth (the Inner Court); and 3) the sea (the Outer Court). Gentiles were not allowed into the inner court. The new, spiritual temple has no outer court — no sea — so it is open to all who keep His commandments.

Dan

[aMorePerfectUnion]

It’s extraordinary, the lengths they will go to backfill a preferred view of the end times.

[Kalamata]

>>It’s extraordinary, the lengths they will go to backfill a preferred view of the end times.<<

The End-Times Industrial Complex is big business that has filled Christian bookstores to the rafters with brightly-colored, scary books. There are so many books on the so-called “antichrist” that someone could start an Antichrist-of-the-Month Book Club.

The post-apostolic corruption of the narrative, which has deceived and destroyed the lives of many over the centuries, probably began in the 2nd century:

“[T]here was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.” [Justin Martyr,”Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew”, in Roberts & Donaldson, “Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers.” Charles Scribner’s Sons, Amer. Ed, 1913, Chap.LXXXI, p.240]

That is a mischaracterization of what John wrote. Not too many decades after that was written the mysterious “Antichrist” appeared in the popular narrative (Irenaeus).

Mr. Kalamata

[Kalamata]

>>Here is a literal Greek translation, which contradicts what you added…<<
Matthew 24:29–31 “And then shall be seen the attesting miracle of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the people of the earth shall beat their breasts in anguish, and they shall see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He shall send on a mission His angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together in one place His chosen-out ones from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of heaven to the other.”

According to the words that follow, his audience, and when the other Synoptic contexts are compared, those events occurred in the generation of Christ. For example, Jesus told his disciples:

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. “ — Luk 21:20-22, 32 KJV

So, when did his disciples see Jerusalem compassed with armies?

>> This is an event seen worldwide by “all the peoples of the world.” Jews are gathered from across the world.<<

The underlying Greek word for “earth” is γῆς, which without qualifiers, can and typically does mean the land of Israel.

>>Neither happened during the destruction of Jerusalem.<<

I was not there, so I tend to rely on the scripture and historical records rather than the varying dogmatic opinions of others.

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> And then shall be seen the attesting miracle of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the people of the earth shall beat their breasts in anguish, and they shall see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He shall send on a mission His angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together in one place His chosen-out ones from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of heaven to the other.”

Neither occurred.

Christ said they would.

[ealgeone]

The underlying Greek word for “earth” is γῆς, which without qualifiers, can and typically does mean the land of Israel.

*****

In some passages it does mean Israel, but it can also mean the actual earth.

As in all these situations the context of the passage(s) and overall use of the word will help us understand the proper meaning.

1093 gḗ – properly, the physical earth; (figuratively) the "arena" we live in which operates in space and time which God uses to prepare us for eternity.

The physical earth (1093 /gḗ) is the temporary, probationary place to live out moral preferences "through the body," i.e. as free moral agents (cf. 2 Cor 5:1-10). In this way, God makes an eternal record of everything we do on the earth. Through faith, each scene of life becomes equally, eternally significant (cf. Mt 13:31,32,17:20; cf. also Lk 16:10; Lk 17:6; 2 Pet 1:1).

[The OT Hebrew term, 776 /asitía ("earth"), also refers to the physical earth as "God's arena" – "the physical theater" in which our eternal destiny freely plays out.]

[ealgeone]

Yes...I will later on tonight. Right now I'm at work on a lunch break.

[Kalamata]

>> And then shall be seen the attesting miracle of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the people of the earth shall beat their breasts in anguish, and they shall see the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. “And He shall send on a mission His angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together in one place His chosen-out ones from the four winds, from the uttermost parts of heaven to the other.”<<

>>Neither occurred. Christ said they would.<<

How do you know they did not occur? What is meant by “parts of heaven”? What is meant by the “clouds of heaven”? Describe the miracle of the Son of Man in heaven.

The Greek word φυλή is typically translated as “tribes” or “kindreds,” not people. See:

Mat 19:28, 24:30; Luk 2:36, 22:30; Acts 13:21; Rom 11:1; Phi 3:5; Heb 7:13-14; Jas 1:1; Rev 1:7, 5:5, 5:9, 7:4-9, 11:9, 13:7, 14:6, 21:12

Paul said this to the Thessalonians:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” — 1Th 4:16-17 KJV

The “we” in “Then we which are alive...” is a 1st Person Plural Pronoun. Paul said that some in his audience of Thessalonians would still be alive when Christ returned. Recall:

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” — John 16:13 KJV

Either the Holy Spirit lied to Paul and did not show him “things to come,” or the Lord returned exactly when and the way Paul said he would. I choose the latter.

Mr. Kalamata

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> The Greek word φυλή is typically translated as “tribes” or “kindreds,” not people.

The Matthew 24:30 passage translated as “all people” is consistent with Rev 1:7.

“Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. “

It is very clear the Jews will be included in the expression of “every eye”, but are merely a subset of every eye.

Where does history record that every eye on earth witnessed a Christ returning in the clouds?

It isn’t found.

It isn’t even found that the much smaller subset of Jews all witnessed such an event in history.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> Paul said that some in his audience of Thessalonians would still be alive when Christ returned.

—> Either the Holy Spirit lied to Paul and did not show him “things to come,” or the Lord returned exactly when and the way Paul said he would. I choose the latter.

1. Paul did not say some of His audience would be alive.
2. The Spirit nor Paul lied. You misinterpreted the passage Mr K.

3. “ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air”

When we’re all believer alive caught up into the clouds?

Where is that major event recorded in history?

[ealgeone]

Let’s think about what is being claimed by the preterists.

Christ came in 70 AD. IF He did then all the believers were caught up with Him. This also would imply the Holy Spirit was also removed.

As it is the Spirit Who moves to convict then no one else would be saved.

Hence it follows none of those after 70 AD could be considered believers.

Further, there is no historical documentation of a great number of people being removed from earth.

As the preterists seem to want to limit this to just the Roman Empire there are no records, and Rome was pretty thorough in record keeping, of a mass depopulation happening in the Empire.

. Their whole position makes zero sense and relies on misunderstanding Scripture and ignoring history.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

It is extraordinary that they chose a position and go to great lengths to pervert the Scriptures to make them fit - like choosing which possible greek translation makes their view possible, like claiming a third second coming, like trying to promote something a handful of people claim as a worldwide viewing of the return of Christ, like trying to promote a very early date of Revelation, etc.

[Kalamata]

>>>>The underlying Greek word for “earth” is γῆς, which without qualifiers, can and typically does mean the land of Israel.<<<<

>>In some passages it does mean Israel, but it can also mean the actual earth.<<

Yes. Generally, it can mean soil, ground, land, and the earth. It can also mean other things colloquially, such as the Temple’s inner and outer courts as in 2 Peter 3:10. But I have found that it is frequently mistranslated to mean the entire earth when the historical context is a region or nation.

The most consequential to eschatology, in my opinion, is Revelation 1:7. In context it says that some who pierced him would still be alive. Jesus said that when he returned, his disciples (or at least some of them) would witness his return. Therefore, a more contextually sound understanding of “every eye” seems to be the eyes of “the tribes of the land of Israel” when all scripture and historical records are considered.

>>As in all these situations the context of the passage(s) and overall use of the word will help us understand the proper meaning.<<

I have found that the context applied is influenced by one’s eschatology. For example, I have always believed that Jesus and the apostles were speaking and writing almost exclusively to their contemporaries, and not to me; so I tend to place myself in their shoes as much as possible when interpreting (as I do with all historical writings.) Others tend to interpret the prophecies of Jesus and the apostles to be referring to modern times.

Mr. Kalamata