JESUS MEANT WHAT HE SAID

Catholic Answers Magazine ^ | October 2022 | KARLO BROUSSARD

[Elsie]

Prophets aren’t in the habit of lifting much from anyone or anything but direct from the source.

And just HOW does one test the Source??

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Doctrine and Covenants       

Section 129:1-9

 

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, 9 February 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished (see History of the Church, 5:267).

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

      

Joseph Smith

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones; 2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. 4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. 5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. 6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear; 7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. 8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. 9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

I've yet to see ANY documentation where this procedure was ever used.

[Elsie]

Which is why God in his wisdom for six thousand years has utilized prophets in communicating with his children.

and...

God, in his wisdom, has warned about FALSE prophets trying to communicate with his children.

[Elsie]

When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken.

Oh???

Doctrine and Covenants

Section 114 http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/114?lang=eng

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, 17 April 1838 (see History of the Church, 3:23).

 

Church positions held by those who are not faithful will be given to others.

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1. Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.

2. For verily thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric.

Amen.

 

 

Sorry to inform the 'faithful'; but Dave died on October 25, 1838

[Hebrews 11:6]

He LAVISHES His grace on us

I feel like vanilla ice cream, and God is pouring hot fudge all over me. I'm getting very tasty....

[metmom]

True for that point.

However, the erasure of my sin debt by God and my standing in Him because of that is not.

[metmom]

You have to take that up with God then.

He’s the one who requires that kind of track record for someone who claims to speak in His name and it’s got nothing to do with the sinlessness or perfection of the person speaking.

[ADSUM]

Provide your source where Jesus stated that we would know conclusively that we will enter Heaven before our death and the judgement by Jesus? Jesus has great mercy, yet he is a just judge.

How does one know whether they have unconfessed mortal sins now or in the future which would prevent someone from entering heaven?

Christ warns not to take the easy path that leads to destruction, as few will find the narrow gate. Mt 7 and then He warns about false prophets.

Are you sure salvation is guaranteed if one ignores John 6:53? How is someone sure of entering Heaven if they reject some of the revealed Truths that Jesus taught us?

[MurphsLaw]

Beside by teaching that one must Eat the eucharistic to obtain life within in him, then this means that you also must be one of the TradCaths that reject Lumen Gentium 16 of Vatican Two which broadly affirms devout SS type trinitarian baptized Prots as having the Holy Spirit,

Nope. I am too much of a sinner to be “one of the tradcaths.
I absolutely do not reject Vatican 2, and at the same time feel there is not a more Sacred Liturgy able to be participate in then the Latin Mass of the Roman Missal.
It’s a shame the current Pope feels the way he does. He does not possess the intellectually theological gravitas of his predecessors- so we must Hope.
For me, the last document of V2 – Guadium et Spes is one of them most profoundly beautiful Christian writings in the last century. Its long- at least 250 pages- but it expresses the application of Christianity for our time like no other recent writing. (For me anyway.)
You may be surprised, maybe not, to learn that non-Catholics D. Bonhoeffer and CS Lewis are among my most favorite spiritual writers.
And that I absolutely believe they will be in Heaven on that day, even though they were “outside” of the Catholic Church and did not participate (probably) in the specific Catholic Eucharistic Sacrament in their Communion practice.

Does that disqualify me as “tradcath”? To that I say- “who cares?”

Now to the point LG 15 (and 16) reaches out to non-Catholics – presumably bypassing a John 6 requirement I don’t find that to be an inconsistent fatal flaw to living the scripture of Jesus’ words in John 6..
Above all things- God is in control.
Nothing from this world binds or constricts God.
God gave us free will yes- but it can never bind God to man’s words or actions.
That’s the flaw of SS trying to bind God to man’s interpretation whims. And at the same time, God is not bound by the Sacraments of the Church as well. His mercy and saving Grace are totally unbound. Hence LG 15.
Though from our Gospel Reading today, we see how Christ appointed the 72 (or 70… hmm) disciples to go out on the Mission to spread the Good news.
The greek says Jesus "Apostled" them- giving them authority to teach what he taught them.
It is written, that Christ directed his Apostles,
teaching to them
“to CARRY OUT ALL that I have commanded you”.
Can you assume the Bread of Life discourse was NOT taught
to his Apostles and Disciples?
Well... it wasn't written down... is your solution.

Which by the way- in Jesus' instructions for the 72 (or 70)
They were not to carry a purse, no bag and wear no sandals...
Did Jesus say "take the scriptures with you"..?
Did Jesus, "only by the OT Scriptures will you convert these stiff-necked Jews.."?
No- No... This alone, should spank your SS tradition to the curb... anachronism be damned !

Anyway, recognize that this is the Church moving forward.
This is Jesus guiding this early Church by Oral Tradition, as St.Paul notes.
My understanding is Luke 10 would have come after the feeding of the 5,000 and the John 6 narrative -
and before obviously the Last Supper and Resurrection.
So did the sending of the 72 (or 70) disciples not require the whole story to be told?
That’s where the Church would come into play.
And it did.

So I have to believe John 6 was also in what Christ wanted for his followers, and to live by.
I don’t think Christ taught anything without purpose.
The evidence from Ignatius
(who was taught by Polycarp- who was taught by this Apostle John)
and more a bit later from Irenaeus faith in the Real Presence, prove this Eucharistic Gospel was developed,
practiced and continued through the Apostolic teaching of the Church.
I have no choice but to believe the early Church took John 6 to heart- pun intended.

But we know the Church changed over time, and with many divisions.
It ultimately had to, as the world changed, and Individualism took over.
And the world is always changing, so there lies the battle.
Of course we have no choice but to sometimes look at scripture anachronistically- but it is not a good basis for a theological belief to be rooted in. a lens that did not even exist in the Early Church.
A lens that often exists- and adjusts for the purposes of an anti-Catholic contrarian need.
The newer those perspectives continue to be born- and the farther they wander from Christianity.
Joseph Smith and others of the recent movements typify that departure.
Christ prayed that ”we would be one”- Did he fail? No. We did.

To be clear, Christ is the One who said to eat HIS Flesh.
My contribution was to those who wrongly think Christ’s Flesh is of no avail in contradiction to scripture.
And I pointed out that Christ was adamant in what he was saying,
to the point he allowed disciples to walk away from him,
and to question his own Apostles if they wanted to leave as well.
It is said it was at this point in Jesus ministry
that Judas bailed out on The Way, being one called by the devil.

My point was that Jesus words there were real
and meant for his Presence to be with us always- physically with us on the Altar.
If I believe them to be real as well, then the Blessed Sacrament brings Christ physically into my body…
(In a similar way Christ chose to be within the Blessed virgin’s Body)

How can I walk away from Christ then?

The one who does not believe then I think they are not bound by this Sacrament.
Although we both agree Baptism IS a requirement, though later denominations have discarded any requirement of regeneration.
I mention this because I noticed you mentioned in your description of Non-Caths as ”devout SS type trinitarian baptized Prots.
Why did you include “baptized”?
You believe Baptism is essential for Salvation.
Or do you just only need Faith in Jesus?

Was the Eucharist meant to be necessary for Salvation off the lips of Christ in the same way?
Somehow, yes, I believe that must have been the case.
But then a young Baptized Child who dies, without ever receiving the Eucharist, would not be sent outside the Body of Christ.
So now doctrine is necessary to explain this Scripture full to live by.
Look then again, at St. Paul, as he states the "even approaching the Body and Blood of Christ unworthily" is a bad thing.
So now the development is not only not eating His Flesh is not a good thing-
but now even approaching the Blessed Bread in the wrong way does (not maybe) bring judgement on oneself.
Where did that come from?

They felt much differently about the Eucharist as part of Christian life than Christians do today.
But Catholics, yes, feel that we walk away from the Eucharist- we’ve lost participation in a very privileged way in the Body of Christ.
It is deemed a sin to miss receiving the Eucharist in Mass every Lord’s Day.
A sin that we must have contrition for, and repent of in a genuine manner.
It's all r nothing with this.

You have provoked some good thought. Even though I know I can’t now walk away from the Body of Christ,
I have to understand how that is for Bonhoeffer and Lewis.
I will read LG again.
The Eucharist IS for everyone. This I know.
What are the ramifications on how we approach this teaching is something I don’t know.
But I know what the Eucharist means for the life inside of me.
Walking away from that, for me, would be devastating.

Nowhere in the NT interpretive of John 6, did anyone obtain spiritual life by literally eating
any flesh, nor is the Lord's supper ever described as spiritual food.
Instead, it is by effectually believing the word of God, the gospel, that one obtains spiritual life,

Nowhere in the NT OR OT interpretive does it claim it has to be found in NT interpretive. Nowhere.
God certainly is not bound by that.
But yet there it is - the limitation of God, bound by man.
Yet you hold that view knowing it was antithetical to what the beginning of the Church evidence does in fact prove.
You can't admit there was not a formalized NT scripture for the first few centuries- let alone any literacy to understand them alone.
You have to deny the Apostles did not teach this SS,
and that somehow the Eucharistic Mass just popped up out of nowhere, illegitimately.
You have deny the teaching of the Didache,
which is more evidence to how the early Church would form
this Eucharistic Mass celebration
as the source and summit of Christian Worship for the beginning of the Church.

You can deny what you wish, but you cannot say that God does not want it.

[MurphsLaw]

The ENTIRE record of my sin debt to God has been wiped clean by Him. He no longer counts sin to my account. I'm freed from it's penalty, it's power, and it's consequences.

“Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice
in Christ even more boldly”

Who says Christianity has to be boring anyways!


NO works to try to *merit* (read "earn") what He freely
lavishes on us.
Catholics live in such bondage to legalism and works.

As salacious as your claim may be... of bondage and all...
I need to know how it is I may go about getting my sin debt wiped clean?
How my sin account can go to zero, unable to be counted?
How can I break the legalistic bondage without having to DO SOMETHING?

Catholics are forced to Confess AND Repent of our sins.
Confessing is something we DO- as an action.
Repenting can also involve an action to UNDO our wrong of sin.

In both cases We enslaved Catholics MUST DO something- AN ACTION on our part.
to be forgiven our sins...
Oh, and it is a work... dreadful work sometimes...

So I ask- Do you DO anything to have your sin wiped away..
Or is it just a mystery?

For it is God-Breathed; It is written:

20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works

[Mark17]

I am just not into these so called living prophets. I don’t need them. I was at Ninoy Aquino International AirPort one day. I spied what I thought was a young Mormon. Sure enough, he was exactly that. We got to talking. I said you guys claim to use the Bible, in so far as it is correctly translated. I asked if he could give me any examples where it was incorrectly translated? He looked like a deer 🦌 in the headlights. He didn’t know what to say. He was just mouthing the words that his Mormon handlers had told him to say. He was just engaging in cult speak. The false religious cult of Mormonism is infamous for that.

[Mark17]

Catholics live in such bondage to legalism and works.

I certainly did, when I was a Catholic. I am no longer a catholic. 👍👍👍👍👍

[x]

You would have been extremely lucky if you found any young person who could answer that question.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

I am just not into these so called living prophets.

Hey bro, I noticed you misspelled "lying prophets."

Wanted to give you a heads up, since I'm pretty sure you were referring to the mormonic variety.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Christ warns not to take the easy path that leads to destruction

That is exactly the path you advocate on these threads.

[boatbums]

I feel like vanilla ice cream, and God is pouring hot fudge all over me. I'm getting very tasty....

Heard recently: If fat is flavor...then I must be delicious!

[linMcHlp]

Jesus is living water,
the well of Bethlehem,
by the gate,
satisfying the thirst of David,
nearby the Siloam Pool.

[Mark17]

Hey bro, I noticed you misspelled "lying prophets."

You are correct bro, I will try not to let it happen again. 😂😄😀😆

Wanted to give you a heads up, since I'm pretty sure you were referring to the mormonic variety.

Yes, I was referring to the false, pernicious, spurious cult of Mormonism. It’s not the only false religion out there, but it’s a bad one. Now, my question would be, if God did not start the false cult of Mormonism, who did? 😊

[boatbums]

Not that I think this will make ANY difference to your way of thinking, I'll address your points in hope they may enlighten others.

Provide your source where Jesus stated that we would know conclusively that we will enter Heaven before our death and the judgement by Jesus? Jesus has great mercy, yet he is a just judge.

Ever read John chapter 3? How about chapter 10? Although Jesus' teachings about the assurance of our salvation when we believe in Him is throughout ALL the gospels, there are numerous other passages in the New Testament that confirm this as well. They've been shown to you many, many times. A sample from John 3 and 10:

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son...Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:16-18,36)

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:27-30)

How does one know whether they have unconfessed mortal sins now or in the future which would prevent someone from entering heaven?

ALL sin is mortal - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

We aren't saved by our works - neither doing good deeds nor trying to keep from sinning.

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. (Ephesians 2:4-10)

Christ warns not to take the easy path that leads to destruction, as few will find the narrow gate. Mt 7 and then He warns about false prophets.

The wide road to destruction is travelled by those who rely upon their OWN righteousness to save them. The narrow road is through faith in Jesus Christ alone where one must first surrender the thought that they are earning their way to heaven. NO ONE can which is why we are saved by grace through faith and NOT of ourselves.

Are you sure salvation is guaranteed if one ignores John 6:53? How is someone sure of entering Heaven if they reject some of the revealed Truths that Jesus taught us?

Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. (John 6:35)

If Gid did not want us to rest in His precious promises of eternal life in Christ, why did John teach:

And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (I John 5:11-13)

The reason you aren't sure you are going to heaven when you die is because you are trusting in yourself and not in Jesus Christ to save you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Glad to help!

[metmom]

That is true because the person trusting themselves is never sure if they're good enough, or repented enough, or confessed enough, or did enough good deeds, or the right sacraments, and the list goes on.

What Jesus did IS good enough. It satisfied the justice of God and He is willing to freely credit that righteousness to the account of anyone who asks. Then we have perfect righteousness in God's sight because it is CHRIST'S righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.