Your post did help, Jim. Thank you very much.
“So the confusion may be mixing up the micro (individual Jews who are receiving Jesus and becoming part of the church) with the macro (the nation of Israel for which God has special plans not to be confused with the Gentile nations).”
Excellent, and I absolutely agree with you on the Church being made of both Jew and Gentile. I believe the same as you concerning the Nation of Israel for which “God has special plans,” also.
“So who is Jesus talking about in Matt. 24:40-41? Well we know he’s talking about the church because he is describing the rapture. In verses 40-41 is he only talking about the Jewish members of the church who will be raptured? I suppose, but it seems like a minuscule point.”
My point would be that Our Lord is speaking of His Second Coming in the above verses, which is after the rapture, as we are to meet Him in the air and that can’t be if we’re here to meet Him at His Second Coming. The Church is positioned in the Heavenlies, whilst Israel still has an earthly kingdom to come:
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Our Lord Christ Jesus will be judging at the time referred to in the passages. The Church is His body and not subject to condemnation.
These verses speak of Our Lord’s return to earth to rule and to reign in His kingdom when Israel will be head of all the nations. Were I Jewish, I would be very much interested in these passages after the Church is raptured. That is my take, and I appreciate that yours may be different.
Since it is not a salvific issue, Jim, I have no desire to butt heads with a brother of the faith, and from your post, I don’t suspect you do either. Either way it is speaking, we will meet either here, there or in the air, so all glory be to God Almighty for His wonderful grace.
Thank you for your reply. There is much to be learned here.
FR is among other things, a debate forum and I enjoy a discussion or debate as long as it is good faith inquiry into the truth and both are willing to learn if that’s what’s needed.
(Part of that is a willingness to let go of “pet doctrines” which I’ve had to do (the flesh loves pet doctrines) to learn the truth from God’s Word via the revelation of the Holy Spirit (not fanciful to flesh but the Spirit in you rejoices).)
It seems that the issue of Jew/Israel/Church/Gentile is settled here. At least I think so.
But Jesus second coming now emerges as a possible issue.
I’m happy to talk about it as long as its in good faith as I said. I love this subject maybe because I feel like God has taken me through 50+ years of learning and I want to comfort and strengthen my brethren.(BTW, I’m in the process of writing a book on the ends times which I hope to finish and publish soon.)
Having said all of that and if you’re willing to continue, I’ll ask you a question:
How do you reconcile
“For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matt. 24:27.
with
“[Y]ou do not know what hour your Lord comes. But...if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.” Matt. 24:42-43.
?
In verse 27 he comes as lightning seen from one end of the earth to the other and in verse 43 he comes as a “thief”, with stealth, who no one sees coming.