SHE, is our new redeemer

Catholic Conclave ^ | 07/09/2022 | CG

[Gillibrand1]

The artist Evelyn Kreinecker, shows a new view of Christian male images of the Creator and Redeemer in her series of works "SHE". This presentation in the church of St. Wolfgang in Kanning in Ernsthofen is exciting and coherent..

[mairdie]

Hate has nothing to do with art. Most modern art is narcissistic crud. But these were excellent paintings and would have been appreciated in a different context. I slow down very little when wandering thru the modern art section of museums. This wasn’t modern art. It was excellent portraiture trying to upset viewers. Ignore their provocation and you can appreciate their talent.

[Varda]

Sure it does when it's the motivation. All art is representational in some way. I wouldn't say I see a great deal of talent in what was at the link. But I do see what was attempted (it's a caricature). Perhaps the intent is to upset the viewer but like all caricatures it tells more about the creator than the viewer.

[mairdie]

I don’t feel any hatred in the representations, though I agree the intent is to upset the viewer. If anything, I’d bet the artist is laughing her head off. The crucifix in urine was the work of a deeply unpleasant person who wanted to hurt those who believed in the crucifix. This artist seems only showing off and is funny rather than cruel.

[Ken Regis]

… she cleared the path …

Well! Wasn’t that GENEROUS of her. Without her, God would have been stymied. So because she cooperated with the Father, she is a “co-redemtrix”!

No other faithful figure in the Bible can be called a “co-redemtrix” for following God’s direct plan (i.e. “You will have a son…”).

I’m sorry if I think your “more accurate definition” is a load.

Bottom line: worshipping Mary is sin.

[MurphsLaw]

I'm sorry if I think your “more accurate definition” is a load.

No worries mate.
Just wanted to add the Incarnate perspective- and that's not to say your Wiki link was not informative. It was. It's a teaching of the Church most Catholics do not even understand- or understand it to mean something it doesn't.

No other faithful figure in the Bible can be called a “co-redemtrix” for following God's direct plan (i.e. “You will have a son…”).

Whether a figure in the Bible- or you or I- your comment “No other faithful…” thinking is just plain wrong. In fact – That's is what Christ calls ALL of us to be !
I think you misunderstand the “CO- part of Co-Redemptrix.

Obviously, and unfortunately, the title of this Catholic-jab antagonistic post - “
SHE, IS OUR REDEEMER” – (Alt title…”who needs Jesus” … right?)
is meant to incite the lies and misconceptions about Mary.
The Blessed Virgin IS NOT the Redeemer, the Church HAS NEVER taught that- It clearly teaches Redemption is ONLY from CHRIST'S SACRIFICE- and this blasphemous art by some dishonest, whacko woman-
does not define Our Lady of Sorrows. The Mother of Christ would NEVER assume this contradictory Redeemer label, and that we do have in the Bible.

Mary is CO- redemptrix as she PERSONALLY participated in bringing Christ into the world- and so bringing humanity to Him. The Blessed Mary is not superior to- or Equal to Christ – and NOR does she redeem. The Blessed Virgin participates in bringing us to Christ- but SHE is NOT the only conduit to do so.

You can be one too !
ANYONE - WHO BRINGS ANOTHER to the Salvation in Christ is ALSO can be considered CO-Redemptor – not more than- or equal to Christ- but one who participates in fulfilling his mission, His desire….
Yes even sinful people such as ourselves are supposed to participate in -assisting in- the redemption of others- though are NOT –in the cause of it.

Bottom line: worshipping Mary is sin.

Ironically – Today we HONOR the Blessed Virgin's Nativity today in the Church.
It's not worship- its an Honoring, its an adoration of the one who gave Birth to Christ- the Savior of ALL of us.
At least though, I hope you see now the difference between of Co-Redemptrix… and “worshipping”.

AND YES ! YOU ARE VERY CORRECT-
WORSHIPPING MARY IS VERY SINFUL !!!

And Yes- The Church condemns this as well ! It clearly teaches We worship ONLY One God in the Trinity.

We would go further and say that
Worshipping Mary IS a MORTAL sin- "a greater sin" if you will...
– and anyone who worships another before God will certainly die.

[SERE_DOC]

more like blasphemy and heresy.

[MIA_eccl1212]

Well I have it on good authority that he who is sitting in the heavens is actually laughing.

While professing themselves to be wise they have become fools.

This is the fulfillment of scripture in fact and in process.

[Ken Regis]

MurphsLaw-
I read your respectful response and I understand it completely.

I’d like to make a point-by-point response that is equally thoughtful but my time is limited.

Here are a couple of highlights and I’d like your thoughts (when you have time and at your convenience)

I do not refer to Mary as “the mother of God“. He is eternally God and was sent from heaven. I do not know if He was placed in her womb as the God-man or if her egg was miraculously fertilized by the Holy Spirit coming upon her. (Lk 1:35ff). If anyone tries to answer that question, they are blowing smoke.

I reject the notion that Mary was without sin.

I reject the idea that she is in intercessory for your prayers.

I reject the distinction you make between honoring and worshiping Mary. It is a distinction without a difference. Just this week I heard a radio advertisement for a local Catholic cemetery. These are the words in the commercial, “Mary is always at the bedside of children when they are departing this world.” To me, this is blasphemy.

Finally, the distinction you make regarding the title “co-redemptrix” uses a couple of active verbs (“participate” and “bring“). Mary was faithful to be sure. Her only question was “how?“ And that seems to be more of a curiosity than an objection. She “participated“ by “bringing“ the baby Jesus into the world. Her role in my redemption does not exist. That is only by the grace of God!

I think on all of your other points, we agree.

That’s good!

[SunkenCiv]

Obviously a cisgender sexist bigot.

[MurphsLaw]

Sorry, tardy.
I'm not going to say what I think you- or anyone- should believe or accept - that's up to you.
You have the right approach- in “No Thank You.”
I just can't stand by and let the intentional misinformation about the Mother of Jesus pass without rebuttal -
especially when I see crap like that post "SHE, the new Redeemer" passed on as some kind of truth-
When it actually is a diabolic insult to her...
One does not have to disrespect her, just because they don't feel any devotion to her.
But to go out of the way to misrepresent her is wrong.

I do not refer to Mary as “the mother of God“. He is eternally God and was sent from heaven. I do not know if He was placed in her womb as the God-man or if her egg was miraculously fertilized by the Holy Spirit coming upon her. (Lk 1:35ff). If anyone tries to answer that question, they are blowing smoke.

I can't say I understand this entirely myself.
I know it doesn't mean God was preceded by Mary in some way- or Mary was the originator of God.
God always been infinitely eternal. To me it just refers to that- that Mary is the Mother of God Incarnated , for bringing God into this world. Nothing beyond that.
Does the “Woman, and her seed” of Revelation “whose seed will crush the serpent’s head, suggest the Virgin Mary?- and change her humnanity?
That I have not researched. I have read though where they came across an early writing from the 200’s I think, that read something like “we take refuge and protection in you Mary, Holy Mother of God”…
So maybe that’s what the cemetery guy was making a play on – but the thinking has been around for centuries- so its gonna be complicated no matter how you slice it.

I reject the notion that Mary was without sin.

Yeah that’s a tough one.
For me though- I like it that way.
I can't imagine Christ, choosing to enter this world, would want to be born any other way but immaculately.
God created Eve sinless to bring about new life, and so Mary - the new Eve too, would be preserved from sin as well yu could think. But it doesn't change The sinless-ness of the Resurrection one iota.

I reject the idea that she is in intercessory for your prayers.

Again- not a mandatory deal anyways.
We pray to God, and in the name of Jesus. In Church We pray for everything- and everyone it seems- and ask the Lord to “Hear Our Prayer” after each intention.

We pray for others in this way because St. Paul in 1 tim “urges” us to pray with intercession- as he says it is Good and Pleases God. This doesn’t then diminish Christ’s role as Mediator in any way.
So its not praying for others- its asking Mary to pray for us you take issue with. We ask the Saints to pray for us as well… especially St Michael !

We see in Revelation again, the Saints Pray for us uniquely as they -
“ fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;”
So we obviously include the Virgin in this intercession.

Do we need to? Or is it commanded of us? I don’t think so. As someone who has ADD and cant really make through the entire Rosary prayers in contemplating Christ’s life- I hope Not !!!

I reject the distinction you make between honoring and worshiping Mary. It is a distinction without a difference. Just this week I heard a radio advertisement for a local Catholic cemetery. These are the words in the commercial, “Mary is always at the bedside of children when they are departing this world.” To me, this is blasphemy.

I wouldn't call this blasphemy- rather bad sales propaganda....
CS Lewis, my favorite writer, wrote about the comfort your cemetery ad was evoking...

"The Christian religion is, in the long run, a thing of unspeakable comfort. But it does not begin in comfort; .....
In religion, as in war and everything else, comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it.

Though Jesus from the Cross told Mary- “Behold Your Son”- he was in essence giving The Woman to John – and all of us. (John's biological mother was at the Cross st the time as well.)
Do some people get overzealous in their devotion to Mary? Yes- Does this mean the little old ladies praying the Rosary are “worshipping” Mary? No. Even your radio advertisement doesn’t rise to the level “worshipping” a diety other than God.
Worshipping would require an actual designation that Mary is God.
If these “Mary worshippers” gave up worshipping God- or Christ as Lord – OR stopped going to Mass where Christ is worshipped - then you have a valid point.
I have never met anyone who places Mary above her creator. It’s a bit of a red-herring I think.

It would be like me accusing someone who goes to “Grace Bible Church” that they are worshipping the Bible. In my weaker moments I confess I have done just that.
But my reasoning was sound to me- not only was the word “Bible” found in the name of the Church-
many Christians substitute Bible sermons in their Church as their devoted focal point , and disregard where the Bible clearly states the early Christians ‘devoted themselves . . . to the “breaking of the bread” (Acts 2:42) and proclaimed Christ’s death through the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:24-26).
So is that wrong worship then?
I don’t really think people “worship” a book over God- but their can be overzealousness there as well..
So I see this worshipping Mary in the same light - misdirected light - as I cna see what I wish to see sometimes.
Let me know if you see any merit in that comparison.

Finally, the distinction you make regarding the title “co-redemptrix” uses a couple of active verbs (“participate” and “bring“). Mary was faithful to be sure. Her only question was “how?“ And that seems to be more of a curiosity than an objection. She “participated“ by “bringing“ the baby Jesus into the world. Her role in my redemption does not exist. That is only by the grace of God!

Yes I totally agree- and especially that the Virgin Mary IS NOT TO BE though of as being a Redeemer.
Her “yes”, to letting God’s will be done unto her – and raising Christ as a Child- is her true participation in bringing Christ into our world- and ALL generations will call her Blessed.

[Ken Regis]

1. Although you’d like to think that Revelation 12’s woman refers to Mary, it doesn’t.
2. I do not recommend that anyone seek protection or refuge in Mary. The end of that is disaster.
3. Mary was not “immaculate“ and was not without sin. Look at Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:8. There are no exceptions, except one - Jesus. You need to know that since Adam, all are naturally under sin. Mary inherited her sin nature from her father at the moment of her conception. Catholics seem to think that because they worship (venerate, honor, whatever) her, she should be immaculate. She was not. Also, she was not assumed into heaven. Her rotted bones are moldering in the grave.
4. Your “church” made up all that business about a “new Eve” and it’s assorted distortions.
5. I don’t think you understand what a “saint“ is! The word is used 60 times in the New Testament. Look at them! Discern for yourself what the meaning is. Ask yourself, “Who ARE these people?“
6. You seem to have an open mind. In fact, your replies remind me of the Bereans. That’s good!
But there’s so much that you don’t understand and your perspective has been distorted over time. I recommend that you get a good study Bible. Investigate on your own, apart from what your church teaches. A good starting “rule of thumb“ is to interpret scripture in the context of scripture.

God has given you the ability to discern His Word. Use that ability.

[Ken Regis]

Oops. Romans 6:28

I can supply MANY other references. The idea of original sin is foundational to understanding God’s plan of salvation. Even Catholics preach what I described earlier, calling it “hereditary” IIRC.

[MurphsLaw]

I did not forget about our conversation...
Have been little tied up lately,

but I was thinking of a way to respond to all your objections in one paragraph-
its very difficult - and ran into trouble finding a starting point-

I was reminded of a scriptural one- which may be where we differ-
and always will perhaps.

But how do you read Genesis 3 - Namely verse 3:15...?
God is punishing the serpent-
He speaks of "the Woman" and her "seed"...

Do you interpret that as God referring to Mary and Jesus or something else?

If not- how do you read that verses meaning?

[Ken Regis]

In your earlier message, you cited Revelation (the woman and her seed.)

I replied accordingly.

Now you’re changing to a different subject.

Finally, I’ve seen your posts in many other threads in the last couple of weeks.

You seem to be untouchable.

Again, it’s not that hard for you to get a good study Bible and learn for yourself how to properly interpret Genesis chapter 3.

Bye.

[MurphsLaw]

Ken- Not so- I was not switching subjects.
You had replied with a list of rejections.
I was struggling trying to find a way to respond to all at once.

Gen 3:15 looked like that starting point. But I did not go beyond that- wanting your thoughts. (Yes- its as far away as you can get to the Rev. Woman - but it was the similar line of thinking.)

I was simply asking who you thought the Gen 3:15 Woman was. There are multiple answers i have seen.
There's no wrong answer.

Bible study commentary on Gen 3:15 is very ambiguous -
and often just symbolizes what is a very real situation I believe.

I will keep looking into it.
Peace.

[Sir_Ed]

I was listening to a Catholic Answers broadcast on EWTN with Jimmy Akin and someone asked him about the Biblical proscription against talking to dead people: necromancy. He replied that meant you couldn’t summon dead people to ask them questions, but it’s okay to speak with dead people who appear unbidden.

He stated “It’s okay to speak to dead people who are speaking to you, even if the dead person speaking to you is damned, and is speaking to you from Hades.”

It seemed like a monstrous thing to say, totally un-Christian. It concerned me such that I almost emailed EWTN to tell them that he’s making un-Christian statements.

I have further doubts about Akin because he seems to see nothing wrong with people like Edgar Cayce using psychic powers to get answers.

[Sir_Ed]

EWTN said yesterday that “Our Lady will save the World.” seems pretty worshipful to me...

[MHGinTN]

Actually, this ‘artist’ is practicing one of the oldest religions of paganism, the worship of Astarte, wife of Ba’al.

[MHGinTN]

Your dishonesty is so deep that I doubt you will ever recognize it while alive. God will 'update' you however. The Catholicism of our age is a cult, not Christianity. You are in a cult, thus the 'god of cults' has you enthralled with the deceptions it fabricates using the imaginings of men.

May God have mercy upon you in your deep blindness.

[MurphsLaw]

Less familiar with Jimmy Akin-
than the other brainy Ex-Prot Catholics-

But I know he is into
"phenomenology" and things of
of a supernatural nature though .

He must have his reasons.