Replies

These different views can also be discussed in terms of how they interpret the “last days” timetable.

As you probably know, from Daniel, the gospels and the Revelation, it is generally believed that a timetable exists of this form:

1,260 days probably overlapping with the tribulation

1,290 days — at this time the abomination that makes desolate is “placed” or set up — involves a blasphemous claim of divinity

1,335 days — the blessing occurs, widely thought to be the events of the second coming.

Now when it comes to interpreting these, some expect a “countdown” of just 1,335 days with the death of the two witnesses at day 1,260, their rebirth and ascent into heaven and a great earthquake at day 1263.5, then the abomination at day 1290 and the second coming at day 1335.

Others expect a double timetable, 1260 days (and 1263.5) as noted above, then 1290 days (which as a technical detail could start at 1260 or 1263.5), then a second choice, go straight on to 1,335 without adding new amounts of time, or go yet another 1,335 days. I think those who do believe in the double timetable probably in most cases do not add the extra 1,335, so we’ll call that 2b not accepted by very many.

The appeal of the double timetable is that 1260 + 1335 days is 2595 days which is seven years and 38 days (or 37 if two leap years are in the span). That is significant because of Daniel’s other time-related prophecy of seventy weeks of years. From whatever start time this prophecy counted down, the most common belief about it is that the life of Jesus represents weeks 62 to 69, and that the countdown of that prophecy is suspended for the church age, to resume in the end times. So the double timetable gives a nearly literally exact seven year conclusion of the seventy weeks.

Now it can also be said that some take the concepts to be coded or proportional, so that the 1260 days could be 1260 periods of time longer than an earth day. The most common substitute for day is year, and so events after 1260 years (and 1290 and 1335) were viewed with considerable interest during the church age. Here again, their significance would depend on when the countdown began, for example, Christ’s ascension (thought to be around 30 to 33 AD), the time of the Revelation (said to be 96 AD), the conversion of Constantine (effectively leading to the church age) around 326 AD, or other events, for example, the appearance of Islam around the end of the 7th century (these dates are approximate because we know very little for certain about the starting processes for Islam, but by the 8th century it had become a serious opponent of Christian and Jewish faiths).

Here, the double timetable is less appealing if only because it tends to create a very long reign of the Antichrist or man of sin figure and implies a dynasty since eternal life would not be granted to anyone until that period had ended.

The 1260 days appears several times and sometimes is given as “three and a half years” or “forty-two months.” To be very precise, 3.5 years or 42 calendar months is usually around 1278 days, but many ignore that fact by holding to the idea that 1260 days is 42 “basic” months of 30 days and 3.5 years of “old style” years of 360 days. In that world view, the 360 days would soon prove to be out of step with the earth’s orbit, but cultures could (and did) insert an inter-calendary period to reset.

Among the references to the 1260 days are these — they form the time span of the two witnesses (in a long count that would have to make them institutions since nobody has lived and witnessed for 1260 years). The “beast” (either the Antichrist or a leader representing the spirit of antichrist) rules for 1260 days (given as forty-two months). The woman who gave birth to a figure widely interpreted to be the Messiah (Rev 12) was or will be then persecuted by the dragon for 1260 days; a place is found for her in the wilderness (with the help of the great eagle) and her child is “caught up to God.” It is not clear whether that happens during, at the start of, or at the end of the 1260 days, so this opens up such interpretations as

(a) the woman is a reference to Mary and the first advent although the time scales do not necessarily match what we can read in the gospels about the escape to Egypt until Herod stopped his persecutions. This makes the link to the end time 1260 days irrelevant.

(b) the woman is a reference to a human cultural institution, a church or a nation (or some group) and the Messiah is born by whatever means within that group, and removed from harm, as is the group itself, or

There are a few who interpret the figure to be other than messianic, since his rule “with a rod of iron” could possibly be blended with the concept of an antichrist who comes to power seeming to be messianic then turns evil in the forty-two month reign.

At any rate, all of these possibilities require that the messianic figure would be taken up into heaven before being widely detected as present on the earth, since the general view of the second coming is that Jesus comes suddenly and without prior warning (except for a few who recognize the signs) out of heaven.

All of the above blends into the original discussion about different timetables of tribulation, rapture, second coming, millennial kingdom, eternal kingdom. They form a more detailed time frame for those views, or alternatively, they add another aspect that should be taken figuratively, just written off as “periods of time” that could have any numbers attached to them.

So none of that gets us any closer to understanding which of the four views advanced is the correct framework and which one of these more detailed time-oriented frameworks is the one to expect.

We can see a world developing that is very similar to the overall prophetic framework. Some can point to evidence that the millennial kingdom has already happened so that we now approach the final portion of the end times. Others think these events are just counting down to the start of the millennial kingdom.

The only practical difference for the faithful is the rather distant concern that after this end time, there could be one more time of trouble in a thousand years, or something allegorically linked to a thousand years.

Here’s what I believe ...

The prophecies refer to two end times, one before and one after the millennial kingdom. The first end time already happened. You can make a nearly perfect fit of the prophecies to the events and historical figures of the Second World War. Without going into great detail, that period can fit either the single or double timetable, and ends in 1945. That makes the “millennial kingdom” a spiritual concept, not ruled by a physically present Jesus Christ (that is one of the options suggested in the original choices).

Broadly speaking that millennial kingdom comes at the millennium (2000-01) not for a thousand years. It can be interpreted as the growth of evangelical Christianity over the postwar era and the division of the world into good and evil (as prophesied, the beast, dragon and false prophet are for some time placed in a prison but they escape from that — essentially, a reference to the globalist-communist-Islamist coalition — and make battle with the saints).

So we now approach the second and final end time during which there will be a great tribulation (in my view this already started) and then dramatic events will end the temporary reign of the beast and lead to the more widely expected form of the Kingdom in which Christ returns and rules in physically present form.

I think this may refer to the present situation, or a near future evolution of this situation. We certainly have an ongoing tribulation and have lost the restrainer (he who prevents the man of sin from making his full appearance). Some interpret this as the transition from Benedict to Francis, others from Trump to Biden, yet others from moderate Chinese leadership to Chairman Xi.

The Biblical imagery is remarkably relevant to the modern world (and to the world of the Second World War). Red dragon has an obvious meaning, as does false prophet (although within or outside Christianity, two main candidates). The beast of seven heads and ten horns sounds a lot like the current version of the G7. Its deadly head wound (Trump’s anti-globalist four years) has been healed (now a globalist rules in America too). This means that the forty-two months has begun. When it started would appear to be most obviously Nov 2020 but you could say that Chairman Xi’s power grab in March 2018 is a candidate also — which would point to a very imminent end to that countdown possibly involving events that we don’t always instantly know about in a secretive country).

I also believe that America (the great eagle) will be to the Kingdom like Israel was to the Jewish kingdoms, a future home of the people who will rule in the name of God. Clearly that would take a very revolutionary turn of events because the current version of America is much more similar to the reign of antichrist, as is the formerly “free world” in general. Abominations have been abundant and astonishing to the faithful in their insolence and their power to delude the unwary (even the “very elect”).

I believe that the Kingdom will have its center within the United States, and probably in the west, most likely Utah. This is not a preview of a Mormon ascendancy within the Kingdom but I do think that the circumstances of the Kingdom’s onset will reconcile differences between various Christian groups including evangelicals, faithful Catholics and non-evangelical protestants, and Mormons. Not all of the additional material in the Book of Mormon will be validated but some will be. Ironically, the Mormon belief that the “temple lot” is in Missouri may have been a case of the right concept being placed too early in the wrong place (at that time the Mormons had not reached the far west). The geography of southern Utah in particular is very similar to the Bibical “holy land” of Judea. It may not be entirely mistaken that many Mormons refer to SLC as Zion, although I tend to the view that a new capital will be built rather than bestowing that honor directly onto any existing city.

To sum up, we are somewhere close to the end of the prophetic countdown, well into the tribulation, but have probably not seen the full abomination although it certainly is being set up at the present time. I do not have strong views on rapture-second coming timetables, but this account would establish that I must be a post-tribulation believer, we don’t get to avoid the tribulation and by now that should be pretty obvious. Neither do I think that God will remove the faithful and destroy the earth because I believe that the Kingdom will be established on the earth.

To the poster who invited people to post on their website, you can use any of this material at your own discretion and attribute it to me under the name seen here.