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MHG, try to follow this simple logic. I was included in the group that BB called LIARS. Based on multiple posts of your side saying a Christian can’t sin (the Spirit indwelling can’t but the flesh can, maybe) and that ALL saved Christians will be in heaven, EVEN IF THEY CONTINUE TO SIN UNREPENTANTLY, I said that was essentially a license to sin, BECAUSE THERE IS NO PENALTY for wantonly committing lawlessness. BB says that there IS a penalty for Christians that sin (unrepentantly) “It doesn’t seem to matter how many times we have said we are NOT saying “Christians...have a license to sin without penalty, to commit lawlessness” BUT SHE WON’T SAY WHAT IT IS!

If there is no PENALTY for UNREPENTANT sin, then a Christian has a LICENSE TO SIN (like Ravi). They can commit whatever sin they want AFTER they are “saved” and they are STILL going to heaven. To them, “God’s law has been made of none effect”. They are LAWLESS. It is as if Christ’s death on the cross now means nothing. Christ kept the law perfectly as a human on earth, and died for our sins, AS THE LAW DEMANDED (blood must be shed and out of love for us, Christ took our place). The human race now has a chance at salvation. Committing UNREPENTANT sin is like spitting in Christ’s face. If we love Him (for what he did for us on the cross), he tells us to KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. If not, you are a LIAR.

BB says “no, there IS a penalty for sinning. Those guys who say we are NOT saying Christians...have a license to sin WITHOUT PENALTY, to commit lawlessness, ARE LYING”

So, WHAT’S THE PENALTY for sinning UNREPENTANTLY? (I am not talking about sin where the person is contrite and confesses to God and asks forgiveness AND THEN asks the Holy Spirit indwelling in him to empower him to resist further sin and live as a Christian should. Do you understand the difference? Your post 336 shows that you do not.)

I AM SPECIFICALLY ASKING “WHAT IS THE PENALTY FOR A SAVED CHRISTIAN THAT CONTINUES TO SIN UNREPENTANTLY?”

There is either a PENALTY or there is not. Which is it, and what is it?

I stand corrected. Apparently you do not have sufficient IQ points to understadn plain language. The demo0n feeding you material is stuck on 'what's the penalty for unrepentant sin'. You low IQ is incapable of reasoning an alternative way to comprehend the issue. Let me see if this helps you:

When I was born from above GOD counted the payment for sin that Jesus made when He paid the penalty for sin, GOD saved my spirit from the penalty because HE had put the penalty upon the ONE WHO was sinless. Jesus paid the penalty for my sin, past, present and future, so that my spirit is free from the penalty. HOWEVER, Jesus was not redeeming my body and soul in that Salvation moment, HE redeemed my spirit which was under panalty for sin. NOW my spirit is not under penalty for sin and never will be regardless of what my 'trained to sin' behavior mechanism may do subsequently.

It appears that you, cultist, do not believe JESUS paid the entire penalty for sin, so you want to set up a negotiation with GOD whereby your fealty to one or more of the laws will count against the penalty your SPIRIT has incurred. when a man is born from above, he is no longer under the penalty for sin, his SPIRIT is saved from the penalty for sin, all sin. When Jesus comes to gather the Body of Christ Believers, GOD will give each member of that Body a new physical body and real behavior mechanism free from sin, just as the alive forever more spirit of the Body of Christ members is free from sin.

You and the catholicism apologists assume a negotiation conference will happen some where/when where in you will cite the work you have done to deserve eternal life. Paul says that is an 'other religion', not Christianity. For with Christianity the believers believe based on the Promise from God that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin, as only a perfectly innocent substitute can. You get no glory for any of it, just the Grace for accepting it. THEN God wants you and His Spirit to get busy working on the soul (not the spirit which has been made the righteousness of Christ).

Now, at this point perhaps there are readers wondering why God works on the sin-laden soul if He is going to give tus a sinless soul when He transforms us in the twinkling of an eye? qwell, He has left us here to live out our lives before others, to show what is the riches and Glory os His Grace. When a bad habit is conquered through the working of the Holy Spirit, you can bet someone is going to notice and the Grace of God is thus exhibited in the life of the Body of Christ believer.

So, what is the penalty for unrepntant sin? Ask Jesus, He paid the penalty for even the sins I cannot remember that my behavior mechanism has committed in thought, word, and deed. When the unbelieving bread seekers asked Jesus what must they do to do the work God requires, recall what He told them ... believe on Whom God has sent for their deliverance from THE PENALTY of sin.

I AM SPECIFICALLY ASKING “WHAT IS THE PENALTY FOR A SAVED CHRISTIAN THAT CONTINUES TO SIN UNREPENTANTLY?” There is either a PENALTY or there is not. Which is it, and what is it?

You know it would be one thing if this was the only time and thread you have ever asked this question, but we know it's not. You reject the answer every time because it goes against this legalistic mindset that works-based religions cultivate. You want a snappy quick answer when we've already explored the actual doctrine and taken much time to explain the Biblical truths concerning the believer's assurance of salvation.

I'll bet if I do answer your hounding this time and explain the principles we have been trying to get across, it won't be long before you toss out the challenge once again on the next thread. Will you prove me wrong?

You claim you DO believe we are saved by grace through faith and not our works, yet you stumble when you start hypothesizing about the terrible sinner who claims they can sin with abandon and God will still have to let them into heaven. Your generalizing like that betrays an insecurity in our blessed assurance and places the onus upon the Christian to maintain their "state of grace" just like Catholicism does - which you claim to be against.

So, let's see what Scripture says about this unrepentant "saved" Christian, shall we? Paul had to address just this kind of thing when he wrote to the believers at Corinth who he had heard were involved in sexual immorality. That seems to be of special interest to you what with your bringing up Ravi so much. Well, they had a member who was having sex with his father's wife (probably a stepmother). The Old Testament law was quite strict about a man having his father's wife - they were BOTH supposed to be put to death in fact (see Leviticus 20:11; Deuteronomy 27:20; 22:30). So, did Paul advise the Corinthian elders to execute the guy? He did not. Instead:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and have removed from your fellowship the man who did this? Although I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord. (I Cor. 5:1-5)

That is one way that Christians involved with public sin are to be treated by the church fellowship. Paul went on to say:

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.” (I Cor. 5:9-13)

Withdrawing fellowship until there is repentance is the remedy for those who cause scandal upon the name of Christ. That IS a penalty, is it not?

Jesus had the same remedy:

If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (Matthew 18:15-17)

Now I brought these examples up to address how fellow believers are to be disciplined within the church structure. I see mercy there, don't you? If God expects us to treat each other with kindness, mercy and understanding, using loving correction to bring about repentance and restoration of fellowship, would He treat us differently? I've already shown you from Hebrews 12 how God deals with each one us His own through chastisement, discipline and loving correction. He does this with the aim of bringing us into conformity with His holy nature as He molds us into the image of Christ. Did you read what I said? In the book of James, when a believer is suffering sickness the elders of the church are to lay hands on him and pray for him that he is healed, but, in some cases - what is called "a sin unto death", prayers will not bring healing because God has chosen to take that believer's life due to unrepentance. Is that a penalty?

I, MHGINTN, Kinsman Redeemer, Seven_0, SouthernClaire and Metmom have all expounded on this thread about our position in Christ as born again children of God. They showed you where Scripture says the new born again spirit in a person is sinless. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. They have shown that the new SPIRIT nature is of God and it remains sinless because it is of God. The old nature remains kicking, however, and must be brought into subjection to obedience and to glorify God through His discipline and correction. There is a process of sanctification and repentance is part of growing in grace. BUT, nobody has claimed what you asserted. You HAVE falsely accuse us of saying:

NO MATTER WHAT HORRIBLE SINS ONE MAY COMMIT, THEY STILL GET TO GO TO HEAVEN. Nothing can keep a “born againer” from going to heaven.

“Claim to be a follower of Christ, Rape all the women you want, commit adultery and fraud, and STILL, nothing will keep you out of heaven.”

"What gives you the right to teach Christians that they have a license to sin without penalty, to commit lawlessness, when Jesus Christ clearly tells us otherwise?”

"You and your other Friends TEACH that Christians now get a free pass for continual sinning. You and your Friends TEACH that there are no WAGES of sin, for Christians, BECAUSE CHRISTIANS CAN’T SIN."

You are in effect saying “look at me, I’m a Christian and I’m saved by Grace. I’m no longer under God’s law and therefore I can’t sin, because the Spirit resides in my person.” “I CAN’T SIN” (Well, maybe my fleshy soul can, BUT NOT MY SPIRIT. Nope, Christ died on the Cross to keep me from sinning. Nope, it wasn’t just the sins up to my conversion to Christianity that were wiped clean, but every other one AFTER, until I die and see Jesus coming in the clouds (or get raptured up first). “I will not be judged for any UNREPTANTANT sin I commit, BECAUSE I CAN’T SIN. (Oops, my Spirit can’t sin).

So, for YOU to tell me that Christians can’t sin, and even if they do in their flesh/soul (that makes no sense) they won’t be held accountable for that sin, regardless. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND TEACHING.

There are several other places where you have misquoted, misinterpreted and plain old invented things out of whole cloth that were NOT said. You balk at being seen as a liar, well you know what they say about the shoe fitting. These ARE things you have accused others of saying and they have NOT said what you claimed. Hopefully, you will come to understand that a GENUINE born again believer in Jesus Christ will NOT come under condemnation but has passed from death unto life. It does not give them a "license to sin", it does not let them escape God's discipline and correction when there is sin but what it does do is change us from the inside. It's why we are admonished to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith - individually, each one of us, before God. This penalty you keep demanding, sorry to disappoint you, will never be hell for the child of God. There may be discomfort, there may be pain, there may even be physical death, but the child of God is indwelt by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Because if anything could, then it's not by grace. What a merciful God we have!

Okay, I'm done trying to explain this point to you here. Hopefully you now understand what we're saying.

You wrote...try to follow this simple logic.

Pardon me for butting in, but two passages come to mind - based on your position.

The first concerns wisdom and the contrast between what a man thinks makes sense and what God thinks.

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? ... but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 1:20,23-25,2:14-16

Pardon me, still, but the second passage deals with our works contrasted with God's grace.

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Galatians 3:1,21-26

I left out a lot of valuable verses... very valuable... I didn't want to lose your attention. Please read and understand.

Bonus verse (that just came to mind and is apropos):

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You also might want to look through Romans 7 - just to see what is said about the sins of an evidently saved man.

Your doubt of eternal security is evident but God's own words should have already laid that concern to rest.

It really comes down to this: Do you trust the whole counsel of God or are you depending on individual bits, taken without context and the traditions handed down by your fathers?

Thank you for your attention.