How We lost The Bible

The Catholic Thing ^ | 8-4-2021 | Casey Chalk

[MurphsLaw]

The promotion of Biblical interpretations serving secular, liberal political agendas of sex and race is only the latest manifestation of a centuries-old trend.

The Bible makes no explicit condemnations of transgenderism. It makes no claims as to the morality of abortion. It encourages racial reparations. Such claims can be found virtually everywhere in corporate media like the Washington Post, New York Times, or CNN, which seek to promote the various political objectives of the Democratic Party.

During his campaign for president, Episcopalian Pete Buttigieg argued that Jesus never mentioned abortion and that Bible verses censuring homosexuality were culturally conditioned, not eternal truths. The Washington Post, in turn, cites secular academics, who offer Biblical exegesis of a progressivist, feminist, and racial identitarian variety.

Of course, the Bible has always been a political document. The Old Testament was not only a religious and liturgical text but one that had much to say about the governance of the ancient kingdom of Israel. Jesus told his followers to respect and pay taxes to the Roman Empire. St. Paul described the temporal ruler as “God’s servant for your good.” (Romans 13:3-4)

For most of ecclesial history, the primary interpreters of Holy Scripture were not journalists, politicians, or secular academics, but the Catholic Church herself. Most early Church Fathers were priests or bishops. Ecumenical councils like Nicea, Chalcedon, or Lyon made determinations on theology, morality, and the meaning of the Bible.

But beginning in the fourteenth century, scholars like Marsilius of Padua and William of Ockham began questioning the hierarchy’s hold on biblical interpretation. Instead, they proposed, the Bible should be under the authority of scholarly experts supported by secular political authorities. Though it would take several centuries for their ideas to proliferate, this thinking came to fruition in the Reformation and Enlightenment, and inspire trends in scriptural exegesis to this day.

This story is the focus of Scott Hahn’s and Benjamin Wiker’s book, The Decline and Fall of Sacred Scripture: How the Bible Became a Secular Book. Less than three-hundred pages, the book summarizes the central arguments of the authors’ 2012 Politicizing the Bible: The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture 1300-1700, which is more than twice the size. This is a welcome development; it makes their important contributions accessible to a larger audience.

While the story begins with Marsilius and Ockham and their Erastian belief in the supremacy of the state over the Church, the reader will encounter many familiar faces. John Wycliffe, esteemed by Protestants as the “Morning Star” of the Reformation, argued that “the pope ought, as he formerly was, to be subject to Caesar.” The monarch would then employ “doctors and worshipers of the divine law” to interpret the Bible. Martin Luther also called for the German princes to wrest ecclesial power away from corrupt bishops and the Roman pontiff, and grant him unequaled interpretive authority. Indeed, Luther asked the prince of Saxony to expel fellow reformer Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt because of the latter’s radical teachings. Around the same time, Machiavelli viewed the biblical text as material for furthering secular political ends.

All of these men influenced the court of English King Henry VIII, who recognized that the Reformation offered an opportunity to consolidate his political power. Thus, he pursued the Act of Supremacy in 1534 to grant him “supreme” headship over the Church of England, followed by the dissolution of monasteries, closure of shrines, and seizure of Church wealth. His King’s Book then declared that individuals must be subject to the “particular church” of the region in which they live, and obey the “Christian kings and princes” to whom they are subject.

Other Englishmen would further endorse this thinking. In Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes asserts that there is only “one chief Pastor” who is “according to the law of Nature. . .the civil sovereign.” Hobbes also rejected many of the supernatural elements of Scripture, as well as Heaven and Hell. John Locke, dismayed by the violence and distemper caused by the English Civil War, endorsed a state-controlled church whose most important feature would be “toleration,” since religious sentiments were private matters “of the mind.” For Locke, Jesus was ultimately a political messiah whose teachings focused on the perpetuation of a “civil morality.”

There are many other actors in this torrid tale – Baruch Spinoza, J. Richard Simon, John Toland – but enough is clear from the above to appreciate the consequences of these religio-political trends. Proto-Reformers called for dethroning the Catholic hierarchy’s supremacy over biblical interpretation. The Reformers, relying on princes and kings, put that wish into practice. And political philosophers and state-sanctioned scholars normalized it. Wherever the Catholic Church ceased to exert ecclesial authority, the state took up the reins.

There has always been this tension between Church and state. St. Ambrose excommunicated the emperor Theodosius because of his execution of 7,000 citizens of Thessalonica. Pope Gregory VII excommunicated the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV because of a dispute over investiture. And Thomas Becket’s resistance to English King Henry II’s attempts to control the Church resulted in his murder at Canterbury Cathedral.

There is actually something healthy about this tension: when the state and the Church both operate strong spheres of power and influence, they serve as checks upon one another. Kings and governments cannot pursue any policy without risking moral condemnation from ecclesial leadership that will undermine their popular support. And Church corruption and nepotism can be used by secular authorities eager to usurp power.

Hahn’s and Wiker’s history tracks the growing imbalance in favor of the state, a disparity whose roots can be traced back to the late Medieval period. The ubiquitous promotion of Biblical interpretations that serve secular, liberal political agendas related to sex and race is only the latest manifestation of this centuries-old trend. To reverse it requires a return to a more ancient understanding that the Bible is, before all else, the book of the Church, rather than the state or its acolytes in the media or the academy. Catholics need to support and celebrate churchmen who appreciate and seek to realize that essential mission.

[Philsworld]

How about cutting to the case and giving us the cliff notes?

[MHGinTN]

And your 'point' is equal to saying salvation is either a yoyo or you aren't saved until you die and some conference arrangement deems you worthy. AND THAT IS A DEMONIC LIE! You are pushing works based sawlvation, even as you are tyoodumb to realize it! GOD gives eternal life by His abidign presence int he born again spirit. He separates the born again spirit from the sin-laden souol/behavior mechanism so that He abides where there is ONLY righteousness.

JESUS, God with us, paid the spiritula penalty for ALL sin. And HE has said clearoly to have His GRace you must believe, then He does the work of separating your spirit from your sin-laden soul and comes to abide in that newly born human spirit you have committed to Him by your BEKLIEF. Apparently you, Phil, do not believe Jesu7s apid the entuire ransome for sin, the spiritual penalty due for sin. That amounts to you do not believe and have not been born from above. Do soemthign about that right now! Believe He paid it all, past, present, and future. hIS gRACE IS OPEN TO all WHO WILL BELIEVE. yOU WANT TO ATTACH STRINGS TO ACHIEVE WORTHINESS. sTOP IT! jUST BELIEVE AND he WILL HANDLE THE REST.

[Sipicaknobius]

It is tough to respond to you, because you like every ‘Christian” in the last 1900 years has no idea why God sent Christ to earth...priests don’t know, ministers don’t know, etc, etc. Most cite 1st Corinthians 15:3, which was true at the time, but not anymore. Jesus did not die for any of your sins, and he didn’t shed any blood for your sins. He died only for the Jewish sins as Paul stated and which is confirmed by Isaiah and Daniel. GotQuestions cited the epistle Romans, but Paul didn’t write the epistle -— Lucius, the Bishop of Cyrene forged the epistle and most of the new testament scripture. The ascension is his fiction, as is the transfiguration, and there is no Second Coming because Christ already had his Second Coming. Forgiveness of sin comes from the Lord God alone, not Jesus who is not the Lord or God. Per the First Commandment, it is as a sin to have other gods before Him, so don’t put Jesus before God. Lucius caused this corruption by forging most of the new testament. I have gone on a long time here and didn’t have sufficient time to explain why God sent Christ. Reply to me using “private post” BELOW and I will give you a full answer.

[Philsworld]

Then how do these people lose their salvation? Answer that!

…21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

[SouthernClaire]

I understand your position, Phil. I think what you’re failing to see is that if a person is truly a Christian they WILL be repentant. Also, it SEEMS as if you are willing to give a Christian so many attempts to stop a sinful habit before you call them out, so to speak, or believe they are condemned to hell.

For the sake of argument, suppose God saves a drunkard or dope addict. Some things God removes the taste for by the sinner immediately. Others have to grow. We all have growing to do when it comes to sanctification. ALL of us.

Suppose the saved Christian is saved on a Wednesday and then fails: he is drunk by Friday evening. He awakens Saturday morn with the burden we all know when we sin, and he hates himself for having gotten drunk. He asks God to forgive him with repentant tears running down his cheeks. How many times before you say the man is unrepentant?

[MHGinTN]

a SAVED PERSON HAS god ABIDING IN THEIR BORN AGAIN SPIRIT, NOT IN THEIR SIN-LADEN SOUL. a BORN AGAIN PERSON WITH god ABIDING IN THEIR SPIRIT cannot lose that which only god has dominion OVER. God is not a yoyo, to come and go.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. ESV

Revelation 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.ESV

Revelation 2:12 To the Church in Pergamum “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.ESV

12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 1599 Geneva Bible

The spirit of ALL born again is separated from the soul and body, which is to say the born again spirit is no longer engulfed by the flesh and the righteousness of Christ has GOD's Spirit abiding in that born again spirit. He is faithful to never leave the spirit HE has birthed from above.

[Philsworld]

It is NOT my job to judge a person’s repentance or true conversion. That job belongs to only One, and that is God. But, if a formally saved person (100% for Christ at the time of their conversion) IS judged by God later, as falling back into sin, and is UNREPENTANT (lawlessness has overcome them), they will not be in heaven. They were saved at their conversion at some point and NOW, they are an UNREPENTANT sinner and lost.

[SouthernClaire]

Do you not think that God will chasten that person to get him back in line? Or that God will take a person out of the game completely (end of life on earth) if the person continues in sin without repentance?

[Philsworld]

Phil. I think what you’re failing to see is that if a person is truly a Christian they WILL be repentant.

---

SC, only in a perfect world. I’m sure there will be plenty of lost Christians who started out solid and then lost their way.

12In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. 13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…

[Philsworld]

Do you not think that God will chasten that person to get him back in line?

---

There are many examples of this in the bible. But ultimately, it is the disobedient one that must make the choice.

[SouthernClaire]

Do you believe that the Holy Ghost lives in the saved person?

I really think that this is what it all boils down to. What is the work of the Holy Spirit in a saved person? Is a person truly sealed until the day of redemption? Does God unseal a person who continues in sin?

For it is He that saved us and it’s He that shall keep us saved. We didn’t do it and we can’t continue to do it; only He can.

We have the Holy Spirit when we are saved and, “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” He performs His work in us to make us as He wants us to be by the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit. If His gifts and calling are indeed without repentance, then how can He take His Holy Spirit and salvation away from a person?

[metmom]

Goalpost moving is a common tactic when someone is trying to discredit someone else.

[Philsworld]

Do you believe that the Holy Ghost lives in the saved person?

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Of course. But does the Holy Spirit make us NOT SIN? No He does not. What He does do is empower us to resist sin (and other things). But some Christians cannot resist going back to their sinful ways.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[SouthernClaire]

Indeed, Metmom! No nailing the point down in this conversation.

[metmom]

And when we turn to Christ in repentance, we are saved and the record of our sin debt is wiped clean and we are buried with Christ and risen in the newness of life.

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

The whole record of our sin debt is canceled, not just part of it.

Then we are transferred into God’s kingdom.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Salvation is a done deal for us new creatures in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

[boatbums]

It goes to show, basically, that those who accuse others of thinking that they can wantonly sin with impunity after salvation do NOT understand the new birth and the effect it has on someone’s life. It reveals the depraved nature of the person, who is actually projecting, as to what they would do if they thought they were secure in their salvation giving evidence of their unredeemed state. How many times does Paul admonish is with, shall we continue in sin? God forbid! And how many times have we posted those verses only to be ignored by those who make the accusations that we teach that the believer can sin wantonly? They continue on as if those verses were never posted at all. They make Scripture to be a lie with their accusations. They don’t want to acknowledge that Scripture condemns a sinning lifestyle by the believer because it robs their arsenal of what they think is their best argument against the security of the believer.

Well and truly stated! Such people simply do not believe that a person CAN BE genuinely saved and reborn as a child of God with all that that entails. They seem to think that nobody can know they are saved until they die and only THEN it gets determined where that soul spends eternity based on whether or not they merit or deserve heaven or are judged unworthy and go to hell. All the assertions of belief in salvation by grace through faith is merely lip service because what they REALLY believe is we have to earn it. Why else the constant harping on "unrepentant" sinners having a license to sin?

The funny thing is I challenged that when I asked about a Christian who DID obey the commandments and was not unrepentant about sin but lived in holiness through the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit but who went to church on Sunday instead of Saturday. You know what answer I got? "Nope! Not keeping the Saturday sabbath was lawlessness."! So, unless the commandments were kept exactly like the cult said, the believer wouldn't be saved. Yep...live like the cult says or it's hell for you! Where have we heard this "dogma" before?

There is a complete lack of understanding of what Scripture tells us:

They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life. I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught. And now, little children, remain in Christ, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him. (I John 2:19-29)

After a while, it is pointless to continue to explain this. Unless everyone agrees totally with them, they will keep on arguing. Pearls before swine?

[Philsworld]

I’m still waiting on an answer to post 364. I’m assuming these were at some point saved Christians with the Holy Spirit indwelling. HOW DID THEY LOSE THEIR SALVATION?

Hint: L*********S

[Philsworld]

And when we turn to Christ in repentance, we are saved and the record of our sin debt is wiped clean and we are buried with Christ and risen in the newness of life.

---

Again, I’m not talking about Christians that REPENT. I’m talking about the UNREPENTANT.

[Philsworld]

You missed a few verses above what you quoted in 1 John 2. Here you go. You’re welcome.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[MHGinTN]

yOU READ AND DO NOT COMPREHEND. rEAD THE PASSAGE AGAIN. JESUS SAYS ‘I never knew you’ ... these are not saved people, they are wroks based arrogant wannabees, like you. I can see you in that gaggle of pleading lost souls who thought they could earn eternal life with Christ. Work work work, Phil, keep busy on your way to judgment. The born again have been judged in Christ and have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them by THE GOD.