Posted on 08/04/2021 2:19:35 PM PDT by MurphsLaw
Indeed, but we also know what “believe” means as regarding saving faith, which is that it effects characteristic obedience by the Spirit, and repentance after conviction of not doing so. As Luther and others themselves stated, faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit... Faith cannot help doing good works constantly... if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit... where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith.. where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both. if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead... if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, “the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.” It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation... faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works... faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire... it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present... where the works are absent, there is also no Christ..
100% correct and also EXACTLY what I’ve always said. Yet, I’m called a legalist, cultist, and a bunch of other names (contact MHGinTN for the full list if interested). I say I am saved by Grace, and because of that gift from God, I will obey my Lord and Savior, by keeping his commandments and showing my faith by good works. No, they say. You are a cultist!
You are correct in identifying the issue. What does it mean to “BELIEVE”?
James 2:
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
And commandment keeping? “If you love me, keep my commandments.... If you don’t, you are a liar”
Plenty of people believe, but then again they don’t show it by good works or keeping the commandments of God. Yes, if you talk the talk, you had better walk the walk.
So, there’s more to believing than JUST believing? Sure there is.
And what is the PENALTY you say there is for saved born againers who sin and are UNREPENTANT? Why can’t/won’t you answer it? Hmmm....
Meaning possession vs. mere profession, however, the natural proclivity of man is to trust in his performance as the basis for assurance of salvation, and thus the emphasis upon justification by faith being imputed for righteousness must be maintained, but also showing what belief practically means. Since everything we choose to do is an effect of what we truly believe - at least at the moment - thus to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ (cf. Rm. 10:9-13) means to obey Him as well as trust in Him to save us on His account, versus our own merits.
Thus those who impertinent knowingly continue in sin are denying the faith, just as one who will not provide for his own family has "denied the faith," (1 Tim. 5:8) as have those who believe that their performance in law-keeping justifies them. (Ga. 5:1-4)
If you believe in justification by effectual faith being imputed for righteousness then it seems that my dissension with is that of your position that keeping the 7th day Sabbath (and dietary laws?) is part of the required "obedience of faith" as is honoring one's parents, but which equivalence I have solid grounds for disagreeing on, though I certainly cannot judge you for choosing to honor the Lord for consecrating the the 7th day as a special day of observance unto the Lord.
Historically observing the 1 day of the week itself used to be practiced, and from early on after conversion I myself have refrained from working for pay or engaging in playing sports on the 1st day, beginning Sat. night to Sun. night, but I do not impose that on others.
I’ve heard every argument there is why “born againers” don’t have to keep the commandments. Basically, it comes down to not wanting to keep the 4th commandment, as it is clearly stated in Exodus...the 7th day Sabbath. Most people don’t have a problem keeping the other 9, at least in some respect. Then again, there are people like Ravi Z (if he did it, and I’m not saying he did), who gets a free pass on unrepentant sin, without penalty.
Yeah, if somehow God changed the day of worship or just got rid of it altogether (or the commandments as a whole), something had to have changed. The problem with that is that He went out of his way to say it didn’t, and what would happen to those who taught that it did.
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I appreciate you including the “solid grounds” article. I’ll read it over the weekend and at some point throw out a few non judgmental comments.
(and dietary laws?)
Yes.
True, and included in this is the gospel of grace thru merit, meaning that by the grace of God believers are justified because God has (magically) infused charity into their heart via the very act of baptism, (ex opere operato) even to an infant, who cannot obey the stated requirements for baptism. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) Thus it is held that if the newly converted died before they sinned then they could go directly to God in Heaven. But since - despite the claim of actual obliteration of sin by the very act of baptism - the sin nature is alive and well, and has its outworking, then unless the soul attains to and dies in the rare state of being good enough in character to enter Heaven, including free from any attachment to sin, then the Catholic must endure purifying torments commencing at death, which Scripture nowhere teaches for the believer, as many times shown here at length.
And this is one reason for the stubborn refusal of evangelical Protestants to even consider that they might be wrong. "Our religion is different; it's the only one to realize G-d is to holy to be pleased, so we can only be saved by a legal loophole." And who wants to spend an entire lifetime walking a tightrope over the yawning maw of Hell (which is basically what all the other religions do)?
Evangelical Protestants insist that if G-d were to merely forgive sin he would "topple from His throne of holiness." He can't simply forgive a sin. His very nature demands that it must be punished, and punished only by eternal damnation . . . even if the punishment is placed on an innocent third party. I don't think Evangelicals would even respect a G-d Who could forgive sin without "eternally damning" it after imputing it to someone else. When your whole view of G-d depends on something you're not going to question it.
And actually, this makes sense. Why would G-d "supersede" the Law of Moses (a ritual, legal, ethical system) with another ritual, legal, ethical system? If G-d could be placated by a ritual, legal, and ethical system we already had one, and one from Heaven at that (disputed by no one). To insist the whole point of the Torah was to eventually replace it with "something just like it only different" simply makes no sense.
My attacks on the fairy tale of an ancient Protestant church is not intended as a defense of the ancient traditionalist churches. It is mean to show that neither form of chrstianity makes any sense and that what was once the true religion (Judaism) is still the true religion. And by the way, G-d does demand atonement for sins, and He provides the ways to do it (which have never been replaced).
::Sigh:: Why do these people continue to pretend the Roman Catholic Church is the only traditionalist church out there and ignore the Ethiopians, the Armenians, the St. Thomas chrstians of India, the Assyrians, the Copts, etc.? Pretending these don't exist just so you can pretend that it all started with Constantine is dishonest.
Well, we have been there and done that:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3868037/posts?page=98#98
https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3954151/posts?page=153#153
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3868037/posts?page=531#531
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3868037/posts?page=566#566
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3868037/posts?page=622#622
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3868037/posts?page=720#720
May God peradventure grant all “repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.” (2 Timothy 2:25)
Well let's see. Which Judaism? And the New Covenant upholds and magnifies the moral law of the Old, and its system fulfills and provides for - in intent and means - what you cannot according to the letter of the law. . And certainly God can forgive sin before atonement, as God did of David's sin before any offering was made, (2 Samuel 12:13) and as Christ Himself forgave sin before He became the final atonement. (Mark 2:10)
However, this forgiveness was provided under the rubric of the required atonement, And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. (Leviticus 16:34)
So just where is your scapegoat and atonement, even your temple and Levitical priesthood to perform all the everlasting, perpetual statues and ordinances? You mean that God left the one true religion without the means of perform such for 2,000 years, claiming that a broken and a contrite heart (Psalms 51:17) suffices while rejecting Isaiah 53 - cannot be speaking of Israel was being the Suffering servant, the scapegoat and atonement - and Jeremiah 31:31-34 as speaking of the new covenant instituted by His sinless shed blood?
You think it was just a mere coincidence that your temple was destroyed and never rebuilt after Israel overall rejected Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied Messiah?
Yes, indeed you must, and thus count evangelical Christians as your theological enemies.
No, it's not the same thing you've said. The difference is that you continue to assert that works MUST accompany professed faith or else the believer cannot be saved. You make obedience to the commandments (especially as pertains to the Sabbath day) more important than faith in Jesus Christ. You expect to be saved because you are obedient to the commandments - in the way YOU believe them to be - and faith in the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ is secondary. Sure, you have to believe, but if you don't obey the commandments you won't be saved. That IS cultic legalism!
You won't acknowledge the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and the chastisement of the Lord upon ALL His children which "yields a harvest of righteousness and peace to those who have been trained by it". You harp on what are the "consequences when we sin"? Ponder this:
You want the child of God to LOSE his salvation if he sins. Our Heavenly Father is far more patient, merciful and gracious. He does NOT wink at sin - and neither do we.
It's been my experience, as well. One sure way I've seen to tell if you are genuinely saved is how you look back on your life prior to becoming a Christian. Is there regret and shame or smugness and humor? What we have been saying all along - and which all along keeps being ignored - is that a true, born again, Holy Spirit-indwelt believer WILL be changed FROM WITHIN. With some it will be quick and others may take more time but every one will be conformed to the image of Christ as God works within us to do all His good pleasure.
What do you think is a suitable punishment/penalty for a Christian who commits a sin?
If I remember you once were a Protestant, right? What happened that you totally rejected Jesus Christ and now follow Judaism? You call Christianity a "fairy tale" but it's the only one I've ever heard of that has actual real historical evidence to back it up. Jesus really did exist. He fulfilled hundreds of prophecies made by the Hebrew Prophets centuries before he came to the earth. Prophecies you must have read if you believe your Tanakh. How do you explain those away? Here's a list of them:
365 PROPHECIES IN THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES FULFILLED BY JESUS
I became convinced that Jesus Christ is the true Messiah and the Son of God because He was crucified, died, was buried and then rose from the dead - as he said he would - and was seen by hundreds of people afterward that attested to what they witnessed. Many even chose martyrdom rather than deny what they knew to be true. How do you explain that?
I don't mean to attack you, I just would really like to know what caused you to abandon Jesus Christ and trash the Christian faith?
It won’t matter if we’ve already been there and done that - and we all have tried. There will still be the gloat that nobody has been able to answer. Apparently, rejecting an explanation means the same thing as being unable to answer.
Oh, Philly...I’ve answered your questions already many times you just refuse to understand or accept them.
It should be easy for you to answer such a simple doctrinal question. You went to bible college, did you not? You called me a liar on it and I called you out. All you have to do is answer the question, which you have not yet done (no matter how many times you say you have, or that I didn’t comprehend/understand/accept your non explanation, etc...)
Again, here’s the question from post 295.
Philsworld: What’s the penalty if a “saved” Christian sins unrepentantly? You guys say once a person is “saved”, NOTHING will keep them out of heaven. Once saved, always saved, right? So, what’s the penalty for committing lawlessness?
BB to SC: It doesn’t seem to matter how many times we have said we are NOT saying “Christians...have a license to sin without penalty, to commit lawlessness”, they will still lie and say we are.
BB to Philsworld: Well, let me turn your question around and ask you...
Your side has REPEATEDLY said that a saved person cannot be lost, regardless of committing ANY KNOWN SIN, and being unrepentant. They are STILL GOING TO HEAVEN (The Ravi principle). The flesh can sin, but the Spirit cannot, right?
So, what’s the penalty?
Justification is when GOD justifies me because JESUS took the penalty for sin, saving me from the penalty of sin.The second tense is where God expects me to be involved, in Him saving me from the power of sin, as the Holy Spirit in my human sp[irit identifies and calls me out for sin which I then confess to Him and He is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me as if the sin never happened.
The third tense opf salvation is when God transforms me from a sin-laden soul and body, into a sinless and pure greater physical body and soul at the Rapture removal of The Body of Christ Believers.
If you continue to reject The Grace offered to you and insist upon entering your fealty to whatever as justifying you, then you will continue to live under the curse of the law and will eventually find out what the penalty is for being without God's Grace received by faith alone in Christ alone.
Since you are not stupid, you have enough IQ points to comprehend the cult agenda you are depending upon, there is the conclusion that you are demonically deceived and liking that since you are an inherent bully.
MHG, try to follow this simple logic. I was included in the group that BB called LIARS. Based on multiple posts of your side saying a Christian can’t sin (the Spirit indwelling can’t but the flesh can, maybe) and that ALL saved Christians will be in heaven, EVEN IF THEY CONTINUE TO SIN UNREPENTANTLY, I said that was essentially a license to sin, BECAUSE THERE IS NO PENALTY for wantonly committing lawlessness. BB says that there IS a penalty for Christians that sin (unrepentantly) “It doesn’t seem to matter how many times we have said we are NOT saying “Christians...have a license to sin without penalty, to commit lawlessness” BUT SHE WON’T SAY WHAT IT IS!
If there is no PENALTY for UNREPENTANT sin, then a Christian has a LICENSE TO SIN (like Ravi). They can commit whatever sin they want AFTER they are “saved” and they are STILL going to heaven. To them, “God’s law has been made of none effect”. They are LAWLESS. It is as if Christ’s death on the cross now means nothing. Christ kept the law perfectly as a human on earth, and died for our sins, AS THE LAW DEMANDED (blood must be shed and out of love for us, Christ took our place). The human race now has a chance at salvation. Committing UNREPENTANT sin is like spitting in Christ’s face. If we love Him (for what he did for us on the cross), he tells us to KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. If not, you are a LIAR.
BB says “no, there IS a penalty for sinning. Those guys who say we are NOT saying Christians...have a license to sin WITHOUT PENALTY, to commit lawlessness, ARE LYING”
So, WHAT’S THE PENALTY for sinning UNREPENTANTLY? (I am not talking about sin where the person is contrite and confesses to God and asks forgiveness AND THEN asks the Holy Spirit indwelling in him to empower him to resist further sin and live as a Christian should. Do you understand the difference? Your post 336 shows that you do not.)
I AM SPECIFICALLY ASKING “WHAT IS THE PENALTY FOR A SAVED CHRISTIAN THAT CONTINUES TO SIN UNREPENTANTLY?”
There is either a PENALTY or there is not. Which is it, and what is it?
When I was born from above GOD counted the payment for sin that Jesus made when He paid the penalty for sin, GOD saved my spirit from the penalty because HE had put the penalty upon the ONE WHO was sinless. Jesus paid the penalty for my sin, past, present and future, so that my spirit is free from the penalty. HOWEVER, Jesus was not redeeming my body and soul in that Salvation moment, HE redeemed my spirit which was under panalty for sin. NOW my spirit is not under penalty for sin and never will be regardless of what my 'trained to sin' behavior mechanism may do subsequently.
It appears that you, cultist, do not believe JESUS paid the entire penalty for sin, so you want to set up a negotiation with GOD whereby your fealty to one or more of the laws will count against the penalty your SPIRIT has incurred. when a man is born from above, he is no longer under the penalty for sin, his SPIRIT is saved from the penalty for sin, all sin. When Jesus comes to gather the Body of Christ Believers, GOD will give each member of that Body a new physical body and real behavior mechanism free from sin, just as the alive forever more spirit of the Body of Christ members is free from sin.
You and the catholicism apologists assume a negotiation conference will happen some where/when where in you will cite the work you have done to deserve eternal life. Paul says that is an 'other religion', not Christianity. For with Christianity the believers believe based on the Promise from God that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin, as only a perfectly innocent substitute can. You get no glory for any of it, just the Grace for accepting it. THEN God wants you and His Spirit to get busy working on the soul (not the spirit which has been made the righteousness of Christ).
Now, at this point perhaps there are readers wondering why God works on the sin-laden soul if He is going to give tus a sinless soul when He transforms us in the twinkling of an eye? qwell, He has left us here to live out our lives before others, to show what is the riches and Glory os His Grace. When a bad habit is conquered through the working of the Holy Spirit, you can bet someone is going to notice and the Grace of God is thus exhibited in the life of the Body of Christ believer.
So, what is the penalty for unrepntant sin? Ask Jesus, He paid the penalty for even the sins I cannot remember that my behavior mechanism has committed in thought, word, and deed. When the unbelieving bread seekers asked Jesus what must they do to do the work God requires, recall what He told them ... believe on Whom God has sent for their deliverance from THE PENALTY of sin.
You know it would be one thing if this was the only time and thread you have ever asked this question, but we know it's not. You reject the answer every time because it goes against this legalistic mindset that works-based religions cultivate. You want a snappy quick answer when we've already explored the actual doctrine and taken much time to explain the Biblical truths concerning the believer's assurance of salvation.
I'll bet if I do answer your hounding this time and explain the principles we have been trying to get across, it won't be long before you toss out the challenge once again on the next thread. Will you prove me wrong?
You claim you DO believe we are saved by grace through faith and not our works, yet you stumble when you start hypothesizing about the terrible sinner who claims they can sin with abandon and God will still have to let them into heaven. Your generalizing like that betrays an insecurity in our blessed assurance and places the onus upon the Christian to maintain their "state of grace" just like Catholicism does - which you claim to be against.
So, let's see what Scripture says about this unrepentant "saved" Christian, shall we? Paul had to address just this kind of thing when he wrote to the believers at Corinth who he had heard were involved in sexual immorality. That seems to be of special interest to you what with your bringing up Ravi so much. Well, they had a member who was having sex with his father's wife (probably a stepmother). The Old Testament law was quite strict about a man having his father's wife - they were BOTH supposed to be put to death in fact (see Leviticus 20:11; Deuteronomy 27:20; 22:30). So, did Paul advise the Corinthian elders to execute the guy? He did not. Instead:
That is one way that Christians involved with public sin are to be treated by the church fellowship. Paul went on to say:
Withdrawing fellowship until there is repentance is the remedy for those who cause scandal upon the name of Christ. That IS a penalty, is it not?
Jesus had the same remedy:
Now I brought these examples up to address how fellow believers are to be disciplined within the church structure. I see mercy there, don't you? If God expects us to treat each other with kindness, mercy and understanding, using loving correction to bring about repentance and restoration of fellowship, would He treat us differently? I've already shown you from Hebrews 12 how God deals with each one us His own through chastisement, discipline and loving correction. He does this with the aim of bringing us into conformity with His holy nature as He molds us into the image of Christ. Did you read what I said? In the book of James, when a believer is suffering sickness the elders of the church are to lay hands on him and pray for him that he is healed, but, in some cases - what is called "a sin unto death", prayers will not bring healing because God has chosen to take that believer's life due to unrepentance. Is that a penalty?
I, MHGINTN, Kinsman Redeemer, Seven_0, SouthernClaire and Metmom have all expounded on this thread about our position in Christ as born again children of God. They showed you where Scripture says the new born again spirit in a person is sinless. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. They have shown that the new SPIRIT nature is of God and it remains sinless because it is of God. The old nature remains kicking, however, and must be brought into subjection to obedience and to glorify God through His discipline and correction. There is a process of sanctification and repentance is part of growing in grace. BUT, nobody has claimed what you asserted. You HAVE falsely accuse us of saying:
There are several other places where you have misquoted, misinterpreted and plain old invented things out of whole cloth that were NOT said. You balk at being seen as a liar, well you know what they say about the shoe fitting. These ARE things you have accused others of saying and they have NOT said what you claimed. Hopefully, you will come to understand that a GENUINE born again believer in Jesus Christ will NOT come under condemnation but has passed from death unto life. It does not give them a "license to sin", it does not let them escape God's discipline and correction when there is sin but what it does do is change us from the inside. It's why we are admonished to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith - individually, each one of us, before God. This penalty you keep demanding, sorry to disappoint you, will never be hell for the child of God. There may be discomfort, there may be pain, there may even be physical death, but the child of God is indwelt by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Because if anything could, then it's not by grace. What a merciful God we have!
Okay, I'm done trying to explain this point to you here. Hopefully you now understand what we're saying.
Thanks, bb.
I guess some people just can’t stand the thought that a person can be secure in their salvation.
They WANT, almost gleefully, that the *penalty* for sin always be death in hell. To them it’s either/or. You either can sin with impunity and get a totally free pass, or get sent to hell.
They do not understand that there are other penalties for sin imposed by God, NOT just for condemnation, but for correction and chastisement. They seem to think that the salvation is totally in the hands of the believer with God saving the person and taking a hands off approach and leaving the believer to flounder all on their own.
God does not save us and then toss us in the water to either sink or swim. He is in intimate communion with the believer, helping him, guiding him, teaching him, etc. He will not let us go on in sin and destroy ourselves, much to the chagrin of the legalists who take such gruesome delight in that thought.
It goes to show, basically, that those who accuse others of thinking that they can wantonly sin with impunity after salvation do NOT understand the new birth and the effect it has on someone’s life.
It reveals the depraved nature of the person, who is actually projecting, as to what they would do if they thought they were secure in their salvation giving evidence of their unredeemed state.
How many times does Paul admonish is with, shall we continue in sin? God forbid!
And how many times have we posted those verses only to be ignored by those who make the accusations that we teach that the believer can sin wantonly? They continue on as if those verses were never posted at all. They make Scripture to be a lie with their accusations.
They don’t want to acknowledge that Scripture condemns a sinning lifestyle by the believer because it robs their arsenal of what they think is their best argument against the security of the believer.
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