Posted on 08/04/2021 2:19:35 PM PDT by MurphsLaw
Sorry but I am really not all that interested in this catholic attachment to Mary. And especially indulgences. But I support your right to engage in it and promote your message.
sms, daniel, mg folks
***I dunno who those folks are and I’m having trouble caring at this point. You appear to be familiar enough with them to use acronyms that only other people familiar with them will know what that is, so this whole thing degrades into a set of humpty-dumpties screaming at each other. I’ll take a pass on that.
Okay, so there is going to be division. That answers your question of what we should expect.
Knowing that such division will take place, there are things we can do to make the discussion more civil, such as opening the thread under religion tags of [open] where the outer edges of uncivility are not allowed.
This thread was a troll to attract invective and nonsense. A nonbeliever could read every word of this thread and not have good enough data to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I squewed up. I should not have said ‘caucus’ protection unless there is a caucus for trinitrians. I should have said [open] tag...
“1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
This is a weak translation. The Greek word for “commit” (poieo) here is in the active, indicative tense which means a continuous ongoing action. The better translation would be “does not continuously sin” or “does not make a practice of sinning”.
That’s nearly exactly what I told him in post 130.
You quoted 1 John 3:9,
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
A true believer has been transformed so that they cannot live in a pattern of continual sin. This doesn't mean that Christians are ever completely free from sin in this life. (Read and understand Romans 7, and 8)
1 John 1:8–10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(emphasis added)
You must always consider CONTEXT when studying Scripture. Otherwise, you can easily fall into error (in this case, "Perfectionism"). (2 Tim 2:15) Here is the whole passage you quoted:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:4-10
Here is 1 Jn 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2
What follows was lifted from one commentary:
In these verses John sets forth, for the third time, the “moral” test of genuine gospel-belief. John speaks of true believers as “practicing righteousness” (v. 7) as opposed to “practicing sin” (vv. 4, 8). While we still sin as believers (cf. 1:8–2:1), a genuine believer does not “practice sinning” (i.e., have a life pattern of sinful pursuits without correction or remorse) because he has been “born of God” and therefore has a completely new identity (3:9; cf. Gal. 3:26; 2 Cor. 5:17). Anyone who does “practice sinning” not only has no grounds for assurance of being in a right relationship with God (1 John 3:10) but also is shown to be still in darkness and at enmity with God, being “of the devil” (v. 8). 1 John 3:1
(Source: Gospel Transformation Study Bible)
In addition,
tn The problem of the present tense of ποιεῖ (poiei) here is exactly that of the present tense of ἁμαρτάνει (Jamartanei) in 3:6. Here in 3:9 the distinction is sharply drawn between “the one who practices sin” in 3:8, who is of the devil, and “the one who is fathered by God” in 3:9, who “does not practice sin.” See S. Kubo (“I John 3:9: Absolute or Habitual?” AUSS 7 [1969]: 47-56) for a fuller discussion of the author’s argument as based on a sharp antithesis between the recipients (true Christians) and the opponents (heretics).
sn Does not practice sin. Again, as in 3:6, the author is making a clear distinction between the opponents, who as moral indifferentists downplay the significance of sin in the life of the Christian, and the recipients, who as true Christians recognize the significance of sin because Jesus came to take it away (3:5) and to destroy it as a work of the devil (3:8). This explanation still has to deal with the apparent contradiction between the author’s statements in 2:1-2 and those here in 3:9, but this is best explained in terms of the author’s tendency to present issues in “either/or” terms to bring out the drastic contrast between his readers, whom he regards as true believers, and the opponents, whom he regards as false. In 2:1-2 the author can acknowledge the possibility that a true Christian might on occasion sin, because in this context he wishes to reassure his readers that the statements he has made about the opponents in the preceding context do not apply to them. But in 3:4-10, his concern is to bring out the absolute difference between the opponents and his readers, so he speaks in theoretical terms which do not discuss the possible occasional exception, because to do so would weaken his argument.
tn Both the first and second ὅτι (Joti) in 3:9 are causal. The first gives the reason why the person who is begotten by God does not practice sin (“because his seed resides in him).” The second gives the reason why the person who is begotten by God is not able to sin (“because he has been begotten by God).”
(source)
I have many corroborating commentaries, btw.
Finally, I learned a long time ago not to contend for too long on FR with either unbelievers or trolls.
It’s OK to continue to sin as long as you don’t sin continuously?
If you continue to sin routinely then you are doing it continuously.
“1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”Scripture means what is says. When people become Christians they continue to sin. How can this be? How much sin is permissible? Perfectionism? What if someone cuts me off on the freeway? Philsworld ask me in post 141 if I considered that Scripture may not mean what it says? Where are you going with that?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.The natural man cannot stop sinning the spiritual man cannot sin.
I don’t understand why you don’t believe the Bible is meant to be political.
God made a covenant be with Abraham about land, a nation if people who would be a nation of priests to the Gentile world. Obviously religion.
But He also made a Covenant with David (the Davidic Covenant) whereby Messiah would rule a political system +and the government shall be upon His shoulders, Isaiah). Peter spoke of Christ sitting in on David’s throne and reigning. That is government
The Bible is comprised of this duality. Religious and Political Document.
Yet he tells the same congregation “If you say you don’t sin the truth is not in you”
Are both statements true?
Scripture means what is says.
Like all of the different denominations out there that base their existence on THEIR understanding of verses, concepts, etc...???
Like biblical scholars that argue over the finest biblical points (minutiae), and have for centuries?
Who’s to say that your interpretation is correct and mine isn’t, or visa versa?
My side says that sin is transgression of God’s law...always has been, always will be (till heaven and earth shall pass, etc...) Your side says “what law,” and “I can’t sin anyway so any law of God wouldn’t apply to me in the first place, and as a born againer, I’m not going to held responsible for it regardless, BECAUSE I CAN’T SIN (Ravi told me that)”
Cannot sin: Or, “is not able to go on sinning,” or “is not able to go on habitually sinning.” This does not mean that the Christian is incapable of committing a wrong act. If he were unable to sin, there would be no virtue in his being without sin, and there would be no true development of character. John has already implied that he will make occasional mistakes (see on ch. 2:1). The passage means that, having been born of God, and having God’s life-giving power dwelling in him, he cannot continue his old pattern of habitual sin. He now follows the sinless ideals that have been implanted in his soul by the new birth.
SDA bible commentary
7. Because. Paul now explains why the mind of the flesh is death.
Carnal mind. Gr. phronēma tēs sarkos, translated “to be carnally minded” in v. 6 (see comment there).
Enmity against God. To set the mind on the things of the flesh and thus to live a life of self-assertion and self-indulgence means inevitably a life that is hostile to God and out of harmony with His will (see James 4:4). Such a course leads to estrangement from God and separation from the source of life—a separation that means death. This hostility against God is the opposite of the peace that comes to those who live in the Spirit (Rom. 8:6).
Is not subject. Or, “does not subject itself.” In military terminology the verb means subjection to orders. The present tense suggests continued insubordination. The mind that is set on the flesh reveals its hostility against God by continued disobedience to His law.
Neither indeed can be. The carnal mind is wholly incapable of submitting to the law of God. Only by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit is obedience again made possible.
When man was first created, his mind and life were in perfect harmony with the will of God. The principles of God’s law were written on his heart. But sin brought alienation from God, and man’s heart came to be filled with enmity and rebellion. Consequently, ever since man’s fall under the power of sin, he has followed the inclinations of the flesh, which have led inevitably to disobedience to God’s law. This is why it is impossible for a man to attain to righteousness and salvation by his own legalistic attempts at obedience. Unless he dies to self and sin and is born again to a new life in the Spirit (ch. 6), he is incapable of subjection to the will of God.
SDA Bible Commentary
I had to go back to see if ebbtide posted it!
lol
Heck, I can get tangled up for HOURS with BELIEVERS!
or is it continually?
yes
Yes, the soul continues to sin yet the spirit has been separated apart from the asoulo so that The Holy Spirit abides therein irrevocably, forever. Paul told us that there is a spirit body.
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