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To: daniel1212
Got tied up… but I’ll ramble on…

But Catholicism fosters faith in one's own merit and that of Herself for salvation,

No..no...no.... You are misrepresenting the doctrine.. This is where you are missing it.... there is NO “ones own merit” unto Justification- that is taught by the Church- never has been. And in the same vein where in the “bible alone” kerfuffle you ignore the Apostles and St. Paul’s teaching through tradition and oral history-obvious no NT existed in Conversion - you also dismiss the fact the EARLY Church fought AGAINST the very same heresy of good works Salvation of Pelagius and the error of his thinking. Pelagianism was and IS a heresy...
Non-sequitur’s aside—you are needing false premises to validate your belief as that faith in faith becomes primacy….



Likewise Canon 32 teaches that if anyone says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself, let him be anathema.

No, no - you are not interpreting 32 properly… as it clearly begins:

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God,

This – the second to LAST Canon on Justification… is simply referencing someone who has been already justified – and doing good works in the manner of gifts OF God….
It.Does.Not.Say. as you wrote- “One justified by Good Works”. That would again contradict everything in Trent.

Most important – it would contradict The VERY FIRST Canon on Justification of the Church Council of trent responding to thr reformers..… the First usually being the MOST important::

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Here are some reference points as well from the catechism of the Church.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts."

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

NOW - that does not mean people may incorrectly assume that for themselves – they can “do good” for their eternal reward…. There are those for sure… many feel that all that is nece. and we see it even today in the mindset of our politicians, who think they do “good” enough work to even allow them to support abortion- proudly- No that is NOT Church teaching.. they think they are saying “Lord, Lord”… not even close…
Heck- the word “CHRISTIAN” has been watered down today in our subverted culture to mean exactly that--- a good person, who does good things. No, no, no. subversion through and through. Certainly in Matt 25 we will have to give an accounting of what we did with God’s Grace… and many will be surprised…

So in a flipped sort of way …- yes in fact there are a majority of Catholics – who are what you would call “Faith Alone” justified as they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb through Baptism – even confirmed with the Holy Spirit- and that their intellectual belief as Christ – Lord and Savior is intact – but that they really need not “do” anything beyond that. That Good works born of Love are NOT necessary for their Salvation as yet they believe…. And that 1 hr of Mass every Sunday is too much to ask… woe to them… They think that “GOAT” is something only to do about Tom Brady…. But not them….

And yet still, they did not “earn” their Baptism- how could they ? It was through God’s grace they began their slate toward salvation, “to standeth or falleth”.
As stated in Trent- it is a process – not a one time, lifetime pass-

….you hold to the fallacy that sola fide means a faith that is alone justifies rather than it being the faith which effects works being that which purifies the heart in the washing of regeneration.

Yes guilty as charged… You may not hold that “fallacy” but I’ve run into the non-Catholic who certainly do…. And again “SOLA” means Only, Alone…. Faith alone…. The minute you say “ faith which effects works” you begin to move away from the Sola position as I see it. As you cited- works were equally affected by the Work of the Devil as well. I think early rebel Luther did believe as well though- although he thought he was cagey enough to dance around what he knew was the immovable, as you cite from him- with Paul’s words nagging him… “Faith without Love is nothing:

Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation... (Luther)
Now I don’t know when in his transformation Luther taught this- I would think he distanced himself from this Catholic thinkin near the end… but this IS exactly what the Church teaches…. GOOD Works are necessary- and it is the grace of God working through us from the beginning of our Justification. If you think of it as a life-long continual process faith and works cannot “work” alone to achieve the purpose of Justification.. Good Works then are NOT not “signs” of our Faith- or something that “proves” our Faith for reward… which is what I encounter often… I do not think this is a universally held belief in the non-Catholic world… so I reject your understanding of my position as total fallacy…

So it brings me back to the point of Love which was my very original point. Love cannot be absent from the Salvific process- and that is our biggest stumbling block. The ego pushes away the idea that it is God who works THROUGH us - IN LOVE, and not of our own doing. We can do nothing without God- every atom of our being is given us by God. Love therefor as Luther wants it- cannot be a symptom or tool on our sanctifying journey- it IS the journey… and we err if we think we can isolate and have faith without it. But once we get there… we can do great things - that's where the Saints get to. And we are all called to be saints.. So.. in response to that God Given Grace, we are to LOVE GOD - and LOVE our neighbor- as ourselves continuously… its the whole deal- not a byproduct...
As St. Augustine wrote then:

Thus every commandment harks back to love. … Love, in this context, of course includes both the love of God and the love of our neighbor and, indeed, “on these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets”—and, we may add, the gospel and the apostles.

Its everything. Not one Christian comment should be absent giving deference to Love. Yeah its sappy- I know…but it’s the theme of the Book…

I think were a lot closer in agreement than you will allow yourself to think. But we can at least agree on C.S.Lewis (love him or hate him) analogy…. That Faith and Works are like a pair of scissors- both blades are necessary for the scissors to work properly.
“Alone” neither blade can do very little on its own…

31 posted on 07/16/2021 2:47:27 PM PDT by MurphsLaw ("If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.")
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To: MurphsLaw
" But Catholicism fosters faith in one's own merit and that of Herself for salvation, No..no...no.... You are misrepresenting the doctrine.. This is where you are missing it.... there is NO “ones own merit” unto Justification- that is taught by the Church- never has been. "

Of course it does, not as meriting the call of God, nor the grace by which one is justified by merit, and with the difference btwn this and salvation by works being explained as Catholic justification by works being by God's grace.

Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis), just as a philosopher by his own inherent learning becomes a scholar.. Catholic Encyclopedia > Sanctifying Grace)

For according to the teaching of the Catholic Church the righteousness and sanctity which justification confers, although given to us by God as efficient cause (causa efficiens) and merited by Christ as meritorious cause (causa meritoria), become an interior sanctifying quality or formal cause (causa formalis) in the soul itself, which it makes truly just and holy in the sight of God. (Catholic Encyclopedia > Justification)

This is set in contrast to justification by imputed righteousness, not as due any holiness of heart (as in "infused charity" whereby "the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity are in the process of justification infused into the soul as supernatural habits." ibid) but (contrary to the typical RC miscontruance of sola fide, it is not separate from regeneration.

As Scripture clearly teaches,

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:47)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

But Abraham was declared righteous when he believed God to do what he was helpless to do, even though he did works or charity before that, and not because he suddenly became righteous. But because he was of true saving faith then he therefore obeyed God.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (Romans 4:19-24)

Thus it is effectual, heart-purifying regenerating faith that is counted for righteousness, rendering one "accepted in the Beloved" on Christ's account.

"No, no - you are not interpreting 32 properly… as it clearly begins: CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, This – the second to LAST Canon on Justification… is simply referencing someone who has been already justified – and doing good works in the manner of gifts OF God…. It.Does.Not.Say. as you wrote- “One justified by Good Works”. That would again contradict everything in Trent."

To the contrary, Canon 32 is NOT teaching contrary to one being justified by Good Works, but actually teaches just that - but of course that this is by the grace of God - and condemns anyone who says that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God does not truly merit the attainment of eternal life itself. Read it:

"If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema." (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32

"Most important – it would contradict The VERY FIRST Canon on Justification of the Church Council of trent responding to thr reformers..… the First usually being the MOST important:: CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema."

You may want to see a denial of man being justified before God by his own works here but that is not what it is condemning, but is condemning being justified before God through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ. It does not teach that man is not justified by works done by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, which is Catholic theology as shown.

" 2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator. 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. ".. Our merits are God's gifts."

Yes, as I have said. God rewards faith by rewarding believers for their works of faith, and which fruit justifies/vindicated them as being believers, however, man obtains justification by imputed righteousness while becoming a new creature thru regeneration.

"2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. "

Correct, as I said, and I have read all this before, but the Catholic basis for justification is that of the presumed inherent righteousness of the baptized soul, and then his works of merit - by God's grace of course - and thus (usually) needing to do to Purgatory to actually become good enough to be with God, versus being made accepted in the Beloved and made to positionally sit with Him in Heaven on His account (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and going to forever be with the Lord at death or His return, glory to God.

NOW - that does not mean people may incorrectly assume that for themselves – they can “do good” for their eternal reward

When you have statements - however misunderstood - like the below, and given the natural mind of man that presumes salvation by merit , then it is any wonder:

"nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547)

….you hold to the fallacy that sola fide means a faith that is alone justifies rather than it being the faith which effects works being that which purifies the heart in the washing of regeneration.

"Yes guilty as charged… You may not hold that “fallacy” but I’ve run into the non-Catholic who certainly do…. And again “SOLA” means Only, Alone…. Faith alone…. The minute you say “ faith which effects works” you begin to move away from the Sola position as I see it"

Then the problem is your ignorance which requires me to use my time to correct. Again, "sola" refers to what actually justifies one, heart-purifying regenerating faith or actually becoming righteous despite yet possessing a sinful nature, which will not be manifest after conversion, and which for the RC means he/she must endure Purgatory until they become actually good enough to be with God.

"Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation... (Luther) Now I don’t know when in his transformation Luther taught this- I would think he distanced himself from this Catholic thinkin near the end… but this IS exactly what the Church teaches…"

No, it not.

"Good Works then are NOT not “signs” of our Faith- or something that “proves” our Faith for reward… which is what I encounter often"

Then encounter it more:

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Hebrews 6:9-10)

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: (1 Thessalonians 1:3-6)"

And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. (Luke 5:20)

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (Hebrews 3:6)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. (Hebrews 10:35)

"Love cannot be absent from the Salvific process- and that is our biggest stumbling block."

Which is consistent with the very verse in the article in which you find inconsistency.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6)

" That Faith and Works are like a pair of scissors- both blades are necessary for the scissors to work properly. “Alone” neither blade can do very little on its own… "

Rather, they are inseparable for they are cause and effect, however what we truly believe (st least at the time) is the cause behind all our volitional choices. Like as forgiveness and healing went together in the story of the palsied man, so that the Lord could ask, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (Mark 2:9) even though healing was the effect of forgiveness, so faith and obedience go together, but faith is the cause behind the effect.

33 posted on 07/16/2021 6:47:12 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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