Posted on 06/17/2021 3:39:12 PM PDT by MurphsLaw
If Catholicism, in the end, managed to elude the political hatred it engenders, I have almost no doubt that this same spirit of the age which seems so opposed to it would become supportive and that it would suddenly achieve extensive conquests. —Alexis de Tocqueville
Almost two centuries ago, Alexis de Tocqueville predicted that Americans would either totally abandon Christianity or convert to Catholicism, writing, “our descendants will tend increasingly to divide into only two parts, some leaving Christianity entirely and the others embracing the Church of Rome.”
He predicted a smaller Church—of which Pope Benedict XVI agrees—saying, “Nowadays, more than in previous times, we see Catholics losing their faith and Protestants converting to Catholicism.” He went on to write that in a post-Christian liberal democracy, Catholicism would be the only viable remaining option:
America is the most democratic country on earth while, at the same time, the country, where, according to reputable reports, the Catholic religion makes the most progress…Men who live in democratic times are, therefore, predisposed to slide away from all religious authority. But, if they agree to obey such an authority, they insist at least that it is unique and of one character for their intelligence has a natural abhorrence of religious powers which do not emanate from the same center and they find it almost as easy to imagine that there is no religion as several…
I think de Tocqueville’s prediction is coming to fruition. The Left has entirely abandoned Christianity and fully embraced secular liberalism. I believe the Right, though still deeply influenced by liberalism—especially classical liberalism—will more and more find its way toward the Tiber. This is at least what I have observed in the last three years since my own conversion to Catholicism and in the witness of conversion among my peers. My friends, including fellow graduates of Liberty University (the epicenter of American evangelicalism) and other Washington, D.C., conservatives, have either returned to the Catholic Church after going through a Protestant phase or are seriously flirting with the idea of converting to Catholicism themselves.
Even among conservative intellectuals, there is a growing trend toward Catholicism. Consider clinical psychologist and post-modern critic Jordan Peterson, who said, “Catholicism is as sane as people can get.” Though he’s not yet Catholic, some would argue he’s well on his way. Or consider the Catholic conversion of likely U.S. Senate candidate J.D. Vance, or even the extremely interesting theological evolution of U.S. Senator Marco Rubio.
But perhaps the most interesting prospect to Catholicism among those in conservative circles is Charlie Kirk, who in an interview with Church Militant admitted, “The world is a better place because of the Catholic Church, and that needs to be said more.” He went on to express that he has “so much respect for the Catholic Tradition and Church.”
When asked if he’s considered converting to Catholicism, he reveals “my friends try to convince me to become Catholic all the time.”
“Some of my greatest friends in the world are Catholic…I go to Catholic Mass every once in a while. I don’t take the Eucharist, don’t worry you don’t have to report me…The joke is that serious evangelicals become Catholic. And I’ve seen that happen. I’m open-minded, but I’m not there yet.”
There were two things that struck me in the Kirk interview. The first was my gut telling me that Kirk is well on his way to becoming Catholic (which is the True, the good, and the beautiful that he alludes to). The second was that by the nature of his answers, social conservatism needs Catholicism just as much as Christianity does.
Which brings me to my own prediction: conservatism, in its quest for identity post-Trump, will eventually convert to Catholicism and be deeply influenced by Catholic integralists. A political philosophy and ideology needs an intrinsic telos. It was Cardinal Manning who once said that “all human conflict is ultimately theological.” What then is conservatism but a commitment to conserving tradition? And what is Western tradition? Christianity, The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
In the midst of his responses, Kirk reveals the weaknesses of Protestantism and conservatism. Protestants and conservatives share the same dilemma: They have competing traditions and interpretations, and are thus fractured and splintered in a way that harms their cause. They have no unified authority, and with a lack of consensus and ultimate source of Truth, debate inevitably devolves into personal interpretation and preference. The Catholic Church is the solution for both groups theologically and philosophically.
In a religious context, without an infallible Church (that gave us the infallible word of God) there is no final authority on its interpretation. Kirk makes this case, ironically, by his answer in regard to progressive Christianity, saying, “They’re misrepresenting the Gospel, they’re misrepresenting biblical truth and the biblical text—I guess they have a right to do that. I’m not going to disallow them from doing that obviously in a pluralistic society in that sense. However, I will say that a true interpretation of the Scriptures cannot possibly lead to the public policy decisions they’re coming to.”
But who decides which interpretation is correct? And why should they, or anyone, have a right to misrepresent the Truth? Error has no rights.
One practical example of division in the realm of social issue policy is birth control. Kirk admires the Church for its commitment to life and marriage, saying, “I love the uncompromising Catholic social teaching when it comes to abortion and marriage. I absolutely love it.” But, assuming he’s like most modern evangelicals, he will totally miss the boat on contraception as the obvious legal precursor to the “right to privacy” that gave way for abortion. Kirk has said he’s against the public funding of contraception because of rights to religious conscience, though he is most likely fine with the legalization of it and the use of it within marriage (even though Protestants were against contraception too, until very recently).
While integralism will certainly not be the Republican Party platform for 2024, it will be the new libertarianism of the present-day Right, the thorn in the side of non-purists. But rather than champion a hyper-individualism, their focus will be on facilitating the common good and establishing a society ordered toward objective Truth that aids in human flourishing. The closest example modern conservatism has to anything “integral” is Catholic Senator Marco Rubio’s “Common Good Capitalism,” an address he gave at The Catholic University of America where he quoted Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, which ironically also speaks to the present-day dilemma of conservativism:
When a society is perishing, the wholesome advice to give to those who would restore it is to call it to the principles from which it sprang; for the purpose and perfection of an association is to aim at and to attain that for which it is formed, and its efforts should be put in motion and inspired by the end and object which originally gave it being. Hence, to fall away from its primal constitution implies disease; to go back to it, recovery. —Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum
Conservatism needs to heed de Tocqueville’s prophecy and take advantage of our post-Trump moment in an effort to redirect the Party toward its true end. Perhaps what is next needed is an institute for integralism—much like libertarianism’s Cato Institute—to further flesh out these ideas and reorient what we’re trying to conserve.
[Image Credit: J.D. Vance, Charlie Kirk, and Marco Rubio (Public Domain)]
The main thesis is correct— there is no pathway for Christianity to survive in America but through the traditions, gifts and strengths of the RCC. Protestantism is at a dead end, nowhere to go as the Mainline dies and the fractious “right” splinters into self absorption and sanctimony.
While the leadership in Rome is currently corrupt there is a vast body of faithful who see that for what it is and who worship God, not the Pope. Abuser priests are continuing to be rooted out, even as their protestant counterparts continue to make a mockery of their own sanctimony.
Over the last century there has been a constant flow of converts, serious
thoughtful and mature adults who by diverse ways arrive at the common destination on the banks of the Tiber. Meanwhile, as the Western church struggles, the Catholic Church of the Southern hemisphere is growing by leaps and bounds, with well educated, theologically conservative leaders who are not ashamed to witness to the living God.
Don’t leave the Egyptian Coptic Church out.
No they don't. But he is no longer the pope.
He’s a retired pope
There's no such thing as a retired pope.
He did not vote in the last conclave. or any future conclaves. Once he abandoned, he's still a priest, but not anything else.
Do you have any idea what has happened with the infiltration of the Catholic Church? The Protestants? Education?
That’s what I’m getting at.
What does the conclave have to do with it? No one votes in the conclave who’s over 80.
Might read this, but no matter what America will always be a Protestant country.
All thy other titles thou hast given away; that thou wast born with. [Act I, Scene IV 153-154] Why, after I have cut the egg i' th' middle and eat up the meat, the two crowns of the egg. When thou clovest thy crown i'... [Act I, Scene IV 162-163] Too bad the former Pope didn't have a fool. The fool would have made great sport of him.
Earlier popes never would have let him get that far not properly educated.
You haven’t read FR in the last ten years.
“ If the Catholic Church did not exist, no one would have ever heard the Name of Jesus Christ by the year 500, if not sooner.
Shocked to hear God is so impotent!!
There has never before been "a retired pope". All former popes who renounced their see, reverted to their former status (whether it be priest, bishop, or cardinal) and dropped the name they had chosen when elected.
In other words Joseph Ratzinger is either now Cardinal Ratzinger or he is Pope Benedict XVI and Bergoglio is a fraud.
There's no such thing as a dual papacy as the goofball Ganswein claims.
How do you know he never read Lear? He’s one of the greatest intellectuals on the planet.
There has never before been “a retired pope”...
Well there is now.
Dream on……
And FR is the ONLY place I’ve met them.
In real life, not so much.
Right.
What would God do without the Catholic religion watching His back?
I guess theirs is.
My God, the one of the Bible, isn’t so incapable of taking care of Himself.
Not gonna happen.
"The joke is that serious evangelicals become Catholic. "
That is a joke, for what stats show is that far more Catholics have left their dead church for Protestant or Prot. evangelical faith than vice versa, though most Catholics just become NONES. In a study reported in 2018, of the 2,112 Catholics in the sample, of the 50 that left: 39 became Protestants, 6 became Orthodox Christians, and 3 became Buddhists, while out of a sample of more than 4,000 Protestants, just 32 became Catholics, 7 became Buddhists, and less than 5 became Mormons, Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. ...Protestant Christianity looks stable overall, with more than 9 in 10 Protestants staying that way over the years. But a tremendous among of migration [btwn Prot churches] lingers below the surface(https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/february/how-protestants-catholics-leave-church-change-religion-cces.html
And from 2015, Pew survey: Percentage of US Catholics drops and Catholicism is losing members faster than any denomination
A report released Tuesday by the Pew Forum finds that the total number of Catholics in the United States dropped by 3 million since 2007, now comprising about 20 percent – or one-fifth – of the total population.
And perhaps more troubling for the church, for every one Catholic convert, more than six Catholics leave the church. Taken a step further, Catholicism loses more members than it gains at a higher rate than any other denomination, with nearly 13 percent of all Americans describing themselves as “former Catholics.” (https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/pew-survey-percentage-of-us-catholics-drops-and-catholicism-is-losing-members-faster-than-any-denomination/)
evangelicals now constitute a clear majority (55%) of all U.S. Protestants.
https://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
Diocese of Springfield Exit Surveys (2014) – percentage of former Catholics who said reason(s) below played a role in their departure
(https://brandonvogt.com/new-stats-young-people-leave-church/)
"Which brings me to my own prediction: conservatism, in its quest for identity post-Trump, will eventually convert to Catholicism and be deeply influenced by Catholic integralists."
Rather, why would they since Catholicism is increasingly liberal*, vs. evangelicals, and with the latter voting about 80% conservative in recent Pres. elections, and thus President Donald Trump won support from about 8 in 10 white evangelical Christian voters in his race for reelection, but Catholic voters split almost evenly between him and Democratic opponent Joe Biden, according to AP VoteCast. [which] showed 50% of Catholics backing Trump and 49% favoring Biden. (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/ap-votecast-trump-wins-white-evangelicals-catholics-split)
"In the midst of his responses, Kirk reveals the weaknesses of Protestantism and conservatism. Protestants and conservatives share the same dilemma: They have competing traditions and interpretations, and are thus fractured and splintered in a way that harms their cause. They have no unified authority, and with a lack of consensus and ultimate source of Truth, debate inevitably devolves into personal interpretation and preference. The Catholic Church is the solution for both groups theologically and philosophically. "
Actually, when you look to a central head office then when it goes South so do those who follow such, vs unchangeable Scripture, and despite having no central head those who most strongly esteem Scripture as the accurate and wholly inspired word of God have long testified to being far more unified in polled core beliefs and values than overall those whom Rome counts as members in life and in death. Thus evangelicals have been religious enemy #1 for liberals and Trad.Catholics alike in the West.
*
40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% http://www.gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx
Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C. faithful church goers (see the below as as morally acceptable): Abortion: 24% of R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46% ^
Comparing 16 moral behaviors, Catholics were less likely to say mean things about people behind their back, and tending to engage in recycling more. However, they were also twice as likely to view pornographic content on the Internet, and were more prone to use profanity, to gamble, and to buy lottery tickets. ^
In a survey asking whether one approves or rejects or overall sees little consequence (skeptical) to society regarding seven trends on the family (More: unmarried couples raising children; gay and lesbian couples raising children; single women having children without a male partner to help raise them; people living together without getting married; mothers of young children working outside the home; people of different races marrying each other; and more women not ever having children), 42% of all Protestants were “Rejecters” of the modern trend, 35% were Skeptics, and 23% were “Approvers.” Among Catholics, 27% were Rejecters, 34% were Approvers, and 39% were Skeptics. (Among non religious, 10% were Rejecters, 48% were Approvers, and 42% were Skeptics.) Pew forum, The Public Renders a Split Verdict On Changes in Family Structure, February 16, 2011 http://pewsocialtrends.org/2011/02/16/the-public-renders-a-split-verdict-on-changes-in-family-structure/#prc_jump
50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. Ellison Research, March 11, 2008 http://ellisonresearch.com/releases/20080311.htm http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080312/study-behaviors-americans-consider-sinful.htm
In a 2010 LifeWay Research survey 77 percent of American Protestant pastors (57% of mainline versus 87% evangelical) strongly disagree with same-sex marriage, with 6% percent somewhat disagreeing, and 5% being somewhat in agreement and 10 percent strongly agreeing. (5% of evangelical).
Only 3% of evangelical pastors (versus 11% mainline) somewhat agree that there is nothing wrong with homosexual marriage.
11% of evangelical pastors (versus 30% mainline) somewhat agree that homosexual civil unions are acceptable, with 67% of the former and 38% of the latter strongly disagreeing with homosexual civil unions. October 2010 LifeWay Research survey of 1,000 randomly selected Protestant pastors. http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-oppose-homosexual-marriage
A 2002 nationwide poll of 1,854 priests in the United States and Puerto Rico reported that 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. However, nearly four in 10 younger priests in 2002 described themselves as conservative, and were more likely to regard as "always a sin" such acts as premarital sex, abortion, artificial birth control, homosexual relations, etc., and three-fourths said they were more religiously orthodox than their older counterparts. Los Angeles Times (extensive) nationwide survey (2002). http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/reports/LAT-Priest-Survey.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_2_39/ai_94129129/pg_2
64% of white evangelical Protestants [blacks make up 6% of all evangelicals] believe abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, as do 52% of Hispanic Catholics, and 41% of white Catholics, and 39% of black Protestants, and 31% of white mainline Protestants. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/01/16/public-opinion-on-abortion-slideshow/
31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly, 2004) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases.. 2004, The Gallup Organization Gallup Survey for Catholics Speak Out: 802 Catholics, May 1992, MOE ± 4%;
When ask to choose, three-fourths of all Protestant pastors surveyed said [2009] they are pro-life, and 13 percent said they were pro-choice. LifeWay Research; http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-share-views-on-gay-marriage-abortion
26 percent of Catholics (2007) polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivocal position on abortion Catholic World Report; survey of 1,000 Catholic Americans by Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut; http://www.adoremus.org/397-Roper.html
46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong. ^
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