Posted on 06/05/2021 9:02:31 AM PDT by JAG 5000
The ancients usually wrote books and then made claims about it being written by others. For instance the Apocrypha is written by supposed false authors. That was very typical there is no reason to believe that the canonical books were any different. Try to understand the times these materials were written and understand the way things were done. You get a completely different understanding.
The pre trib Eschatology came long before Miller as you noted previously.
I can’t think of many times I have argued Eschatology with non Christians. I also can’t think of how believing Pre, Post or Amillennialism effects me day to day or with trying to lead someone to Christ.
You are welcome to believe what you want, we will find out the truth soon enough.
The real experts hold to the date of pre-destruction of the temple.
First, Jerusalem is spoken of as still standing. Revelation 1-11 alludes frequently to the fall of Jerusalem. John is called to measure the temple, without any suggestion that it is destroyed (11:1). Jesus told His disciples that within their generation, not one stone of the temple would be left on top another (Mt. 24:2). The temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and never rebuilt. Thus, it is evident that Revelation was written before that judgment.
Furthermore, the emperor Nero is mentioned as still being alive: “There are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space” (17:10). Julius was the first Caesar (48-44 B.C.); he was followed by Augustus (27 B.C.-A.D. 14), Tiberius (A.D. 14-37), Caligula (37-41), Claudius (41-54), Nero (54-68), Galba (who ascended the throne upon Nero’s suicide on June 9, A.D. 68 and reigned only briefly until he was assassinated on January 15, A.D. 69) and Vespasian (A.D. 69-79). The first five Caesars—Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius—had already died (“fallen”) at the time of the writing of the book of Revelation. Nero was on the throne. After him arose another Caesar, Galba, who only continued a short space—just a little over six months. How exactly was Bible prophecy fulfilled!
Moreover, Revelation 13:8 identifies the emperor with the number equivalent of Nero’s name: 666. In Hebrew the name is “nrwn qsr”: n (50) r (200) w (6) n (50) q (100) s (60) r (200), which totals exactly 666.(1) The numerical values of the Hebrew alphabet are well established.(2) How totally contrived and arbitrary are naive and misguided efforts to force this historic number on twentieth-century English names such as Henry Kissinger or Ronald Wilson Reagan!
There is also the a priori teaching of Scripture itself that all special revelation ended by A.D. 70. The angel Gabriel told Daniel that the 70 weeks were to end with the destruction of Jerusalem (Dan. 9:24-27); that period would also serve to “seal up the vision and prophecy.” In other words, special revelation would stop by the time Jerusalem was destroyed.
Finally, John repeatedly makes the point that the great tribulation he describes “must shortly come to pass” (Rev. 1:1). This was a comfort for persecuted Christians: deliverance was at hand! “Shortly” does not mean a quarter of a century later—let alone 1900-plus years later! God’s word says: “shortly,” and there is no reason for not taking it literally. Further, there are at least 24 verses in Revelation (e.g., 1:3; 2:16; 3:10-11; 10:6-7; 12:12; 22:3, 7, 10, 12, 20) which speak of the imminence of the fulfillment of the prophecies of the book (not imminent now but imminent in the first century).
Revelation 1:1 states, “what must soon take place.” The word “soon” (swift/shortly-Greek “Tachos”) means quickness and speed, indicating that these events will happen “suddenly” and “unexpectedly” (Matt 24:32; 2 Pet. 3:8-18).
The late date, so people point out, also refers to God’s divine providence and the final phase. The time of waiting is over; Christ is here. The time is near for God who lives outside of space and time, but not necessarily near for us. This is similar to the last days, referring in context to the sudden nature of the Christian era, not necessarily a time reference (2 Pet. 3:3). Many Christians took this to mean that it would happen soon. We need to understand God’s perspective, not our desires. This word is critical to which approach and view of Revelation one takes. If we take this word as it is in English and do not pay attention to the Greek or the context, we will jump to the conclusion of immediate fulfillment (Acts 2:16-17; 1 John 2:18; Rev. 22:6-12, 20).
Nero Caesar exiled John on the island of Patmos. Nero died in 68 AD, and according to Roman law, those banned by a prior Caesar would be released by the succeeding Caesar. Thus, John would have been released from Patmos around 68 AD. (John himself mentions he was at Patmos when he received the Revelation).
John is clearly writing to the seven churches and consequently to people being persecuted by Rome. Rome was a bloodthirsty, pagan empire that oppressed its people, especially Christians, who were considered criminals and slaves and used for sadistic entertainment.
Peter also wrote to the Christians in Asia Minor around the same time for an early date or a few years before John (1Pet. 1:1-6; 4:12; 5:9). He notes that they were in extreme persecution, suffering, and in dire anguish. This is similar to John's language and situation (Re 2:9; 3:9) and similar situations recorded by Paul in Acts 13:50; 14:5,19; 17:5-8,13; 18:12. Thus, the severity of the persecution is consistent with an early date.
Let me repeat -- I said clearly that the pre-tribulation rapture is non-biblical and non-historical. I did not comment on pre-millenialism per se in this thread
The rapture fantasy is non-biblical and was not held by Christians before Miller time in the early 1800s
Well good luck with your emphatically convincing the whole of Christianity of your being right.
We shall see.
Meanwhile concentrate on reaping the harvest, because the workers are few.
The book of Revelation was written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, during the Great Tribulation under Nero
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.Nero Caesar exiled John on the island of Patmos. Nero died in 68 AD, and according to Roman law, those banned by a prior Caesar would be released by the succeeding Caesar. Thus, John would have been released from Patmos around 68 AD. (John himself mentions he was at Patmos when he received the Revelation).
We're not talking about Herodotus who lived in the 3rd century before Christ
The Biblical imagery in the book of Revelation is exactly what is there in the other apocalyptic book in the Bible - the book of Daniel
In the ancient religions there is what is call pralya by the Asian Indians which is the root substance of the universe -- Firstly, it's called "Pralaya" - and it's not "the root substance of the universe" -- Pralaya is related to the Indo-European root "przerwa" or "pauza" or pause - it is the pause between yugas when the loka are destroyed.
I repeat The "Syriac version" of the New Testament, which dates back to the second century A.D., states that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero making a date of 64-68 A.D.
I repeat this is a mystery religion and Revelations was written from Graeco Egyptian sources. The smartest man I ever knew had 5 PHD’s and read 27 languages. He was a retired Professor of Philosophy and knew more about ancient religions than you and I will ever know(he was also a good Republican). He said he actually saw a copy of the document from which this was taken from. I take this person at his word. I certainly take it over anyone who would tell me that Jesus drank Grape juice. They did not write from a standpoint of history and they did commit pious frauds in order to put their veil over things. The fact that the Syriac version said what it said means nothing.
“Pralaya is related to the Indo-European root “przerwa” or “pauza” or pause - it is the pause between yugas when the loka are destroyed.”
In other words it is the root substance of the universe when the universe goes into (acccording to easter sources) negative existance. It is the source of everything when everything goes out of negative existence. In other words it is the root substance of the universe, as I said.
No, it’s not the root substance as per Santana dharma. That is Eshwara
Revelation was not written from Greco Egyptian sources. It has no relationship with the mystery cults of the greeks or of the Egyptians.
The book of the Apocalypse is standard biblical apocalyptic literature in the same vein as Daniel or large chunks of Jeremiah or Isaiah
Isaiah has no Zoroastrian influence. It was written well before Zoroastrianism had any influence on the middle east.
“Most if not all of the religions from that time period have apcalyptic literature.”
That’s incorrect. Have you read any religious books?
The Gathas aren’t apocalyptic, neither are the Upanishads, the teachings of the Mahavira, nor the Daoist writings.
“Isaiah has no Zoroastrian influence. It was written well before Zoroastrianism had any influence on the middle east.”
You are dead wrong.
https://dailymassmeditation.wordpress.com/zoroaster-and-the-birth-of-an-apocalyptic-faith/
Notice the date here given for zoroastrianism. This was indeed apocalyptic.
Nope.
Zoroastrianism arose in Eastern iran, in what is now Tajikistan. It had no influence in the west of Fars before the 6th century.
The book of Isaiah dates to the 8th century.
Tge tone and text of the Gathas are utterly different from Isaiah.
What’s your argument?
read the zend avesta. Read any bonafide study of Zorastrainism. The eighth century BC is before the 6th century BC. Ther are other dates that put it back further.
Coming in late. What is the consensus?
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