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To: kosciusko51

Your comment; “If works are a result of Grace, then there is no need for supererogation, purgatory, nor indulgences.

For no one can do more good work than God has prepared beforehand.”

This does not make logical sense.

If God gives us actual grace to help us become holy or as a promise for our good deeds. Actual grace is for the moment and then gone. Sanctifying grace can be lost through mortal sin.

Did you read the differences in Catholic and Protestant understanding if sanctifying grace?

If you believe that Christ death on the cross forgave all future sins, then you do not understand the Bible and reject Christ’s teachings.

Do you pray the Our Father and understand the meaning when you ask for forgiveness of your debts (sins) and we are required to forgive the debts of other?

Parables are teaching moments. Such as Parable of the Unmerciful servant (Mat 18:23-35) and Parable of Talents (Mat 25:14-30) These are examples of God’s forgiveness or lack of forgiveness.

Why did Jesus give His disciples and their successors the power to forgive sins, if all sins were forgiven by his death on the cross? (John 20:22-23)?

Christ’s dying on the the cross was the final bloody sacrifice for our sins and God then opened Heaven for those that were judged worthy by Jesus.


64 posted on 11/22/2020 7:40:10 PM PST by ADSUM ( )
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To: ADSUM; kosciusko51; SkyDancer; boatbums; metmom
If you believe that Christ death on the cross forgave all future sins, then you do not understand the Bible and reject Christ’s teachings. Do you pray the Our Father and understand the meaning when you ask for forgiveness of your debts (sins) and we are required to forgive the debts of other?

Forgiveness is not unconditionally automatic but neither must salvation require confessing all sins that one has done. Christ's death on the cross provided for the forgiveness of all sins by faith, that of penitent repentant faith, so that in conversion such believers are forgiven of all past sins without having to confess all of them in detail, and likewise the same are forgiven sins after conversion if they are of that faith.

The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)

For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. (Isaiah 66:2)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:25-26)

We are not even conscious of all the sins we have committed in heart and in deed, by commission and omission, and thus if specifically confessing all sins was necessary for salvation then at length who could be saved? How can one be forgiveness in conversion of all past sins without compiling a list, but for which the convert is repentant about, while as a believer the same must be conscious or and repent from every sin and failing?

In contrast to which is salvation being by penitent faith which appropriates general forgiveness and does confess specific sins when convicted of them. For since true faith is one that is penitent by nature then such a believer will repent and ask God for forgiveness when convicted of sin - insofar as one is able - which God can use others to convict us of. However all sin has detrimental effects to varying degrees which consequences we must deal with, and we also can ignore some sins or be ignorant of them and be chastened for them, even by allowing the devil to afflict us and even be too infirm to deal with them. And as in the case of the palsied man in Mark 2, God can use others of faith to intercede and obtain mercy/forgiveness. Meanwhile while to harden one's heart when convicted of sin is a denial of faith, and if continued, results in damnation.

When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. (Psalms 32:3-5)

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:6-8) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:9-10)

He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy. (Proverbs 29:1)

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: (Hebrews 3:7-8)

So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hebrews 3:11-12)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:26-29)

Why did Jesus give His disciples and their successors the power to forgive sins, if all sins were forgiven by his death on the cross? (John 20:22-23)?

Actually the only exhortation or command in the NT to confess sins to others is that of confessing them to each other in general, in communion with the body, but not just pastors, and which includes instrumentally obtaining forgiveness for others, and teaches that the power of binding and loosing in provided to all believers of Elijah-type fervent holy faith.

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. (James 5:16-18)

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

This shows that the power of binding and loosing did not begin with the church, though it extends to it. Elias bound the heavens and loosed them, and which spiritual power extends to what is promised to faithful believers in general in Mt. 18, beyond the disciplinary binding and loosing by a true church, but as part of it:

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:18-19)

Then there is also judicial binding and loosing by authorities. In Numbers 30 we see that the father of his daughter under his authority, or her husband, has the power to bind her to keep vows that she choose or to loose her. And judicially the OT "supreme court" to which cases were brought that could not be resolved in lower levels, had power to bind one in his guilt or loose the same, (Dt. 17:8-13) as do civil rulers today, to whom conditional obedience is enjoined. (Rm. 13:1-7)

Which judicial judgment relates to Mt. 18, in which corporate judgement is to be made in cases that were not be resolved, which Acts 15 examples, yet this is a corporately assented judgment, under leadership. And in application we have

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)

And thus the body of believers needed to forgive the one who defiled the body, with the apostle assenting as a representative of Christ:

To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (2 Corinthians 2:10)

Thus far we see the contrast btwn Catholic confession and Scripture, and the above relates to James 5 which Catholics abuse:

Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (James 5:13-15)

Contrary to the Catholic contrivance of the power to bind and to loose, the man is not told to confess anything, nor are the ministers Catholic priests, and rather than being a precursor of death as is the norm with the Catholic sacrament of Last Rites, this is to meant to provide healing.

For the sin that may be involved here is likely one of ignorance, and for which the man is being chastened. And as said, we can ignore some sins or be ignorant of them and be chastened for them, even by allowing the devil to afflict us and even be too infirm to deal with them.

And in the case of the palsied man in Mark 2, God can use others of faith to bring one to Christ, and it seems also to intercede and obtain mercy/forgiveness for those chastised infirm believers who may be ignorant of their sins for which they are chastened. For the body is not one member but many.

To which relates:

And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (Mark 2:2-5)

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

Thus we see that rather than regular private confession to Catholic priests being taught, instead confession to each other and prayer for each other is what is exhorted/commanded, and with intercession of holy believers of fervent faith - which the pastors are normally to be - being able to obtain release from chastisement for sins of ignorance. There is more to this issue but the above is what I can make of it now.

67 posted on 11/23/2020 5:29:55 AM PST by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: ADSUM

“If you believe that Christ death on the cross forgave all future sins, then you do not understand the Bible and reject Christ’s teachings.”

Roman’s 8:28-39 clearly rejects this premise.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

31¶ What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37¶ No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


69 posted on 11/23/2020 6:01:40 AM PST by kosciusko51
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