Thoughts on The Timing Of The Rapture

https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/thoughts-on-the-timing-of-the-rapture/ ^ | 05-09-20 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:4-6)

The famous “Faith Chapter” in the book of Hebrews, begins with two Saints, Abel and Enoch as examples of faith which we are to imitate. Faith is the point, for faith is the only way to please God.

I once asked the LORD, ‘Why Faith? Why is that what you require?” I believe I received several answers in the form of scripture and impressions, from the LORD. God requires faith, because we simply cannot save ourselves. Only God can save our souls, no one can redeem themselves, therefore Faith is required, because faith glorifies God and not man.

Another reason for the requirement of faith that came to me, is that our problems began when we quit believing in the goodness of God. Adam and Eve were willing to entertain a false and degraded notion of God, that He was holding something back that would be good for the first couple. The Serpent bore false witness about the LORD, and they believed it.

The way back? It has to be faith. We must repent and believe again in the goodness of God.

The “hall of faith” begins with Abel and Enoch. One Saint who was murdered for his faith, and for bearing witness to God in a hostile world. There would be literally millions upon millions who would follow in his footsteps, being willing to let go of their life rather than deny the truth of God.

The other Saint, Enoch, was a man who lived in a kind of “end times scenario” living in the time leading up to the flood. It was a day of Apostasy, but Enoch walked with God, until God took Him home. He didn’t die , He was raptured. God took him home, to be with himself.

Faith was required of each of them.

I believe that we also live in an end-time. I have no doubt that Jesus is coming, and in our lifetime. What makes us unique is the re-emergence of the nation of Israel, in 1948, in fulfillment of the prophecies about the last of the last days. All of the prophets pre-supposed that there would be a national Israel, and a Jewish occupied city of Jerusalem, as well as a controversy over Judea, (The West bank) which would engulf the whole world.

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. (Zechariah 12:1-3)

Which brings us back to our two Saints at the beginning of Hebrews 11. One died, He was martyred for his witness to God. The other one did not die. He was Raptured. Both of these Saints lived by Faith and Pleased God.

I believe that this speaks to us in our generation.

No doubt. many of us will end up dying. Perhaps some of us will be given an opportunity to be martyred. We are Saints and love God, but all things being equal, unless the LORD returns, we will die, one way or another.

(Of course, Christians don’t really die, they “go to sleep”) but the real point is that Faith is the only way to please God.

But according to the scriptures, there is a unique end-times event, coming, as I hope I have pointed out in this series, called the Rapture, or “Our gathering together unto Him”, “the Episynagogue” and Jesus coming to “take us where (He)…is, unto himself”. The LORD is coming to snatch us off the earth with a swift and irresistable power”.

To participate in such an event is a rare honor among the countless Millions of Saints who believed in Jesus before us.

But whether we die, or are martyred, o whether we are raptured, the real point is that we must live our lives by Faith,which is the only way to please God.

This is why I do not enter into the countless discussions as to the timing of the Rapture. “Will The Rapture be pre- ,mid , or post Tribulation”?

Honesty, the only things I am sure about the Rapture at all are that it is:

* For God’s Saints only, and the prospect of it is a comfort.

* A Mystery revealed in the New Testament era.

* It occurs before the actual “Wrath ” of God.

* It involves the “dead in Christ” as well as “We who are alive, until the coming of the LORD”.

As far as I know, all else can only be speculation. God doesn’t want us to know the exact timing otherwise it would be clearer. I am glad there is a Rapture, and my prayer has always been that I be involved in it, while alive. But I cannot say with certainty what the timing of it is, so I don’t.

What counts is Faith in Jesus. Not dead works, but a living, vital, infectious faith. Let us have a faith which still moves us to confess and forsake our sins, to Love and seek God. To forgive and love our brothers, and a faith which moves us to share with others what God has shown to us. Is your faith alive? Do you have oil in your lamp? Are you current with God?

We Overcome the World by our faith. “This is the victory that overcometh the World…our faith”. We overcome the Spirit of antiChrist also, by our faith. So also we overcome the sins that so easily beset us, and the Coldness and soul deadening effect of this world, by our Faith.

Of course we want out of here, we can increasingly see that there is nothing in this World for we who believe, but rejection and opposition.I want Jesus to come, and Long for the Rapture. I am either going up in it, or I am gong to die, but one way or another we are leaving.

Either way, the point is Faith. So I will leave the timing of the Rapture to God, and just strive to be counted worthy to attain it, whether ded or alive.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:35)

[Philsworld]

Table of Contents to the above mentioned article:

Table of Contents
Introduction and Definitions

The Church
The Jewish Babylon and the Gentile Babylon
Physical Israel; spiritual Israel
Physical Jew; spiritual Jew
Physical Jerusalem; spiritual Jerusalem
The Body of Christ
One new man
The olive tree
The new covenant
Conclusion

[smvoice]

“For this is the Covenant that I will make WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days”.

Did you not read that part?? God made the covenants with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. It cannot be any clearer, Phil. This is why it’s so important to adhere to 2 Tim. 2:15.

We were STRANGERS to the Covenant

s: Ephesians. When Israel rejected Christ and He blinded them and set them aside, there was NO HOPE for Gentiles, as Israel was supposed to be God’s nation of PRIESTS and teach and bring the Gentiles to a saving knowledge of the Messiah.

This is the wonder and the beauty of God reaching down, saving Paul and sending him to preach the gospel of the GRACE of God to Gentiles and any Jew who would believe. This was based purely on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST. No covenants.

[boatbums]

There is a spiritual Israel as well as a literal Israel. Christians are grafted into the vine through faith in the Messiah. We are among the children of promise that God gave to Abraham before there even was a nation of Israel - that through him all nations of the earth would be blessed and his descendants would be a numberless as the sands of the sea. Just because someone was born into a Jewish family it doesn't mean they are automatically saved. I never even alluded to that. No one is saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ. Your argument is that there is no longer a nation of Israel - I disagree, it remains a nation and even more so as they have reinhabited their promised land. God will not forget His promises to Israel. In fact, that there still IS a nation of Israel remaining after all these thousands of years is proof that God's promises are real and His word is truth.

But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me; the Lord has forgotten me!” “Can a woman forget her nursing child, or lack compassion for the son of her womb? Even if she could forget, I will not forget you! Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands; your walls are ever before Me. (Isa. 49:14-16)

You have every right to come to your own conclusions about the end times. I believe the Dispensational view is the one which truly explains the various ages, times and ways in which God deals with mankind. But, throughout every one of them the way to eternal life has ALWAYS been by faith and not works.

[Philsworld]

You haven’t read it yet, have you? Because if you had you wouldn’t have written what you just did.

http://www.wor.org/book/3931/israel-is-the-church

[smvoice]

I’ll finish this here. Paul was saved and sent to the Gentiles. The FULNESS of the Gentiles began when Paul was appointed by God as the Apostle to the Gentiles. He laid the foundation for the Church the Body of Christ, with Christ being the cornerstone. The Body of Christ is composed of any Jews or Gentiles who believe the gospel of the graceful God, that was given to Paul to give to us. Obviously there probably aren’t many Jews in the Body.
The fullness of the Gentiles will “be come in” when the last person believes the gospel and is brought into the Body. When the Body is full, it is complete.

[Philsworld]

You have every right to come to your own conclusions about the end times. I believe the Dispensational view is the one which truly explains the various ages, times and ways in which God deals with mankind. But, throughout every one of them the way to eternal life has ALWAYS been by faith and not works.

---

I totally agree that Salvation is by Faith. But, faith without works is dead:

Here’s just a few texts I just looked up online about Faith without works.

James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:14-26 - What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Read More...)

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

James 2:18 - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

James 2:20 - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:1-26 - My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons. (Read More...)

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Hebrews 11:1-40 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Read More...)

Titus 1:16 - They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:14-24 - What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Read More...)

James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Read More...)

I’ll talk about commandment keeping later.

Here’s a prelude:

1 John 2:3 By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him:…

[smvoice]

I have read some of it and will continue to. But first let me say this:

Israel was and is God’s covenant people, and we’re promised an earthly inheritance as God promised Abraham.
That is what the Old Testament, Matthetvw,Mark, Luke, John, Acts 1-8 and Hebrews through Revelation are all about. They are God’s covenant people.

Gentiles were never promised an earthly inheritance nor were they God’s covenant people. All of their blessings and promises are in HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ. That’s what Acts 9 through Romans through Philemon are all about. These are Paul’s Epistles and letters.

Israel has an earthly inheritance from God
The Body of Christ has a heavenly inheritance from God.
They are NOT the same.

Have you ever wondered about the Apostles?
Why Paul didn’t replace Judas? And here is something else to consider: Jesus told the 12 Apostles that when He sets up His Kingdom they will be sitting in 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
What about Paul? He’s God’s Apostle, too. Where is his throne?

[Philsworld]

Israel was and is God’s covenant people, and we’re promised an earthly inheritance as God promised Abraham.
*******
Philsworld: Israel WAS God’s covenant people (Old Covenant). They messed up by not doing what God told them to do
The Old Covenant was a promise by the people of Israel to keep the letter of God’s Law, and the mediator of the Old Covenant was Moses:
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The final straw was their role in the death of Christ and their refusal to recognize Christ as the Savior, and of course the death of Stephen. The exclusive Jewish club ended there. Now, enter the Gentiles.
1 thess 2:14-15 (KJV) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

---

That is what the Old Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts 1-8 and Hebrews through Revelation are all about. They are God’s covenant people.
******
Philsworld: Again, they WERE God’s chosen people, but they messed up and refused to believe

---

Gentiles were never promised an earthly inheritance nor were they God’s covenant people.
*******
Philsworld: I agree with you that Gentiles were never promised an earthly inheritance nor were they God’s covenant people. But, we were grafted into the New Covenant promise. We are as much a part of that tree as any Jew ever was. Paul is very clear on that.

---

All of their blessings and promises are in HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ. That’s what Acts 9 through Romans through Philemon are all about. These are Paul’s Epistles and letters.
Israel has an earthly inheritance from God
The Body of Christ has a heavenly inheritance from God.
They are NOT the same.
*******
Philsworld: The bible clearly does not teach this. We, Gentiles, have been grafted into the promise of Abraham. There is neither Jew nor Greek. The “Israel of the Flesh” as Paul describes it, is no longer exclusive. It’s done. We are now the new Israel (everyone who believes in Christ as our Savior). We are the church. We are grafted into the new covenant that was originally made with the house of Israel, the house of Judah and went into effect the day He died on the Cross.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
-————————————————————————————————————————————————————————Have you ever wondered about the Apostles? Why Paul didn’t replace Judas?
*******
Philsworld: I never thought about it that much but I did some research and here’s a pretty good answer:

Why Didn’t the Disciples Choose Paul to Replace Judas?

Many have argued that Paul played a greater role in the New Testament and should’ve replaced Judas Iscariot as the twelfth apostle.
After all, Matthias seems to disappear from the New Testament after the passage in Acts listed above. Paul, instead, wrote a huge portion of the New Testament, embarked on multiple missionary journeys, and brought a great many to Christ. Was Paul truly the person to replace Judas Iscariot? Had the disciples made a mistake by casting lots instead of asking the Holy Spirit?
Many will assert that the disciples had exercised fallacious human reasoning instead of trusting in God, but they forget the disciples had also prayed that God would reveal the person to replace Judas (Acts 1:24).
Not to mention, Paul didn’t fit the criteria, explains Brook Potter. Although he did encounter Jesus on the road to Damascus (Acts 9), he didn’t follow Jesus throughout his public ministry on earth.

---

And here is something else to consider: Jesus told the 12 Apostles that when He sets up His Kingdom they will be sitting in 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
What about Paul? He’s God’s Apostle, too. Where is his throne?
*******
Philsworld: I’m guessing Christ has something special planned for Paul, maybe even more prestigious than judging the 12 tribes of Israel. We will see.

I will say this, smvoice, you give me things to think about and do research on and I appreciate that. It helps me be a better Christian and points me towards evidence and answers. That is never a bad thing. I have more questions for you but they will have to wait until Friday. I work nights and I’m off to bed. However, I’ll check back in the morning if there is any activity.

[Philsworld]

I forgot to mention this....The Jews were given 490 years (70 prophetic weeks) to get their act straight. But they failed.

http://www.godssabbathtruth.com/images/daniels70week.png

What scripture was manipulated to come up with the seven year tribulation?
Most Bible students are stunned to learn where the seven years came from. In Daniel 9:24-27 God gave a prophecy concerning the probation of Israel. Daniel 9:24 reads, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

God was going to allow Daniel’s people seventy weeks to end their rebellion against God and if they failed, Israel would be rejected as a nation. The seventy weeks are prophetic time and each day represents a literal year (Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34). So the seventy weeks would actually be a literal 490 years after which the Israelites were no longer God’s people. The seventy prophetic weeks were to begin with the decree to restore and build Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”

That well known date is 457 B.C., when Artaxerxes sent out the decree. (Ezra 7:13) From that date the Jews would have exactly 490 years to stop their rebellion towards God. The 490 year probation ended in A.D. 34 and the Jews ceased to be God’s chosen people. Daniel 9:25 says that the Messiah would be anointed after the total of sixty nine of those prophetic weeks had passed by. That would be 483 years from the decree date of 457 B.C. It takes no mathematician to figure the end of that prediction. It brings us to the year A.D. 27, the very year that Jesus was baptized by John and the Holy Spirit anointed Him for His ministry. Since “Messiah” means “Anointed One,” this can only be the fulfilment of Daniel’s prophecy that the Messiah would appear in A.D. 27. Seventy weeks were assigned to the Jewish probation but Christ appeared as the Messiah after sixty nine weeks. That leaves the final and seventieth week for Christ to minister before the Jews probation ended. What was to happen in the seventieth week?

Daniel 9:27 tells us, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

The “midst of the week” would be three and a half prophetic days (or 3.5 literal years) from His baptism and according to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for exactly that, three and a half years. In the spring of A.D. 31 Jesus was crucified and the veil of the temple was rent (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of sacrifices. By His death He caused the “sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the seventy weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples laboured mainly for the Jews but in A.D. 34 the seventy weeks ended; Stephen was stoned after his immense speech before the council in Acts chapter 7 and the gospel began to go to the Gentiles (Acts 8:4). The Jews had rejected the gospel message and were no longer God’s chosen people just as Daniel had predicted. Now they could only be saved as individuals in exactly the same way as the Gentiles.

The seventy weeks or 490 years was the time God gave His chosen nation to end their rebellion where He would then forgive them for their transgressions. Notice how Jesus refers to this prophetic time period here in His conversation with Peter. Seventy times seven is of course 490.

Matthew 18:21 “Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.”

Now, to make the Jesuit manufactured prophecy fit its new interpretation, Daniel’s 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 which began in 457 B.C. with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Ezra 7:1-27) had to develop a “gap.” Arbitrarily the 70th week (7 days = 7 years) of Daniel’s prophecy is detached from its context and placed at the end of the age 2000 years later where it logically can no longer be the seventieth week. This “week” will according to its proponents constitute the “seven year tribulation period,” prior to which the secret rapture will occur.

This false and illogical “gap” theory states that all fulfilment of this prophecy is suspended until the Christian era is over. Then the last week of the 70 weeks prophecy becomes operative again constituting the seven year tribulation period. This false Jesuit manufactured theory teaches that the first sixty nine weeks of this seventy week prophecy (490 years) reached from 457 B.C. to the year 27 A.D. when Jesus began His ministry. The true “Historical” view teaches that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 began in 457 B.C. and ended when Stephen was stoned to death in 34 A.D. It was at that time that the gospel went to the Gentiles and the Jewish people lost their place as those “Chosen” to spread God’s message to the world. They had also rejected Christ by calling for His crucifixion in the “middle of the week,” in 31 A.D. and then rejected Christ’s followers by stoning Stephen 3.5 years later at the end of the 70th week. (34 A.D.)

So we find this false rapturist theory gets the seven years tribulation by lifting that seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy completely out of its context and shoving it far into the future where it is logically no longer the seventieth week. They claim it will be fulfilled after Christ comes to snatch away the righteous secretly. They agree that the sixty nine weeks of Daniel 9:25 refer to the period before Christ’s first advent, but then they insert a 2000 year gap before the seventieth week is fulfilled. They allot 69 weeks plus 2,000 years plus one week, or a total of approximately 2,490 years. By this devious manipulation of God’s Word by the Papacy, the rapturist’s believe they have extended the Jewish probation and based upon this, they teach that all the Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the “secret rapture” takes place.

Daniel’s Seventy weeks Chart
The tragedy of this Jesuit spawned rapture theory that was commissioned by the Papacy is that it takes this beautiful messianic prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, that proves Jesus is the Messiah by predicting His coming, His baptism and crucifixion, and then applying it to the antichrist. They do this by stating that it is antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and a half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic and blasphemous occurrence. This is however the only way they could arrive at a seven year tribulation period. How very sad.

When speaking of Christ’s second coming, you often hear the question are you pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or post tribulation. These terms are also the result of the very same Jesuit spawned propaganda. It also comes from the seventieth week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy. Pre-tribulation is taken from the time of Christ’s anointing, mid-tribulation comes from the time Christ was crucified and post tribulation comes from the end of Daniel’s 70 week period which was the end of Israel’s time to repent of there rebellion and coincided with Stephens stoning.

[GBA]

Have you ever wondered about the Apostles? Why Paul didn’t replace Judas?

? Not sure what you were asking, but your questions made me think of this from Acts 1

Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.
24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.”
26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Judas was replaced. Why?

[smvoice]

Matthew 27:1-10

[amorphous]

And there is not one text in the bible that says God will remove anyone to heaven when it hits the fan.

True, there are multiple texts...see my previous links. :)

[amorphous]

So we find this false rapturist theory gets the seven years tribulation by lifting that seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy completely out of its context and shoving it far into the future where it is logically no longer the seventieth week.

Many prophecies happen in multiples, one occurrence a shadow of the one to come. Passover and Crucifixion is a perfect example. The lamb of Passover was a shadow of the Lamb of nailed to the cross. The same may be occurring now, with the Papacy reign representing a shadow of Daniel's prophecy, and the last 7 years only just begun. We won't really know until the trumpet sounds and the sky rolls up.

Another shadow may be the 49 years America has had to fix the legalization of the murder of the innocent, starting in 1973 and extending until 2022. The longest lasting blood moon in recent times occurred exactly 3.5 years prior to the 49th year of Rov vs. Wade in January of 2022.

[fortes fortuna juvat]

It is what He has done for us that saves us. See???
.........................................................
I see everything you’ve written here and have been seeing the same argument for 50 years, but my response to you is that no amount of argument that you or anyone else can ever make can successfully refute THIS:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=KJV

[MHGinTN]

I don’t see ANYONE on this thread trying to refute what James wrote. Your problem stems from your lack of understanding as to HOW good works are generated. The abiding spirit of God in the bron again by faith CHRISTIAN is author of the change in want to that results in good works which testify to the Presence of GOD in the human spirit (see 1 John 3:9).

[fortes fortuna juvat]

Your problem stems from your lack of understanding as to HOW good works are generated.
................................................
I have no problem at all. God gave us FREE WILL to make free choices to conform our every thought, word, and deed to His Holy Will. Your problem and others who naively choose to ignore that will suffer the consequences that will inevitably result from this sad misunderstanding of that most fundamental of Christian teachings.

[boatbums]

I totally agree that Salvation is by Faith. But, faith without works is dead:

Of course faith if it has not outward good works is a dead faith! I don't know why you continue to argue as if I am advocating a sinful lifestyle for born again Christians. I have never said that. In fact, what I keep saying is our outward actions, works, good deeds, avoidance of sin are evidence of a genuine born again experience. But this does NOT mean our works have any part in our redemption. It is the blood of Jesus Christ which redeems us - only by shedding of blood is there atonement for the soul. You linked to a Lutheran website earlier, here are some excerpts from Martin Luther about that very subject:

In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is,

a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]

This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]

“We must therefore most certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 246, footnote 99]

What Augustine says is indeed true: He who has created you without yourself will not save you without yourself. Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life. For the sake of hypocrites it should be said that good works are necessary for salvation. Works must be done, but it does not follow from this that works save… Works save externally, that is, they testify that we are just and that in a man there is that faith which saves him internally, as Paul says: ‘With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation’.” [What Luther Says 3: 1509]. [Ewald M. Plass, “What Luther says,” page 1509]

“Thus faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works. When this takes place a person becomes known to me and to other people. For when I thus break forth I spare neither man nor devil, I cast myself down, and will have nothing to do with lofty affairs, and will regard myself as the poorest sinner on earth. This assures me of my, faith. For this is what it says: "This man went down to his house justified." Thus we attribute salvation as the principal thing to faith, and works as the witnesses of faith. They make one so certain that he concludes from the outward life that the faith is genuine.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

“Thus, faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire, like gold. Faith, the great gift and treasure from God, must express itself and triumph in the certainty that it is right before God and man, and before angels, devils and the whole world. Just as a jewel is not to be concealed, but to be worn in sight, so also, will and must faith be worn and exhibited, as it is written in 1 Peter 1, 7: "That the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire," etc.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2:245-246]

In those therefore in whom we cannot realize good works, we can immediately say and conclude: they heard of faith, but it did not sink into good soil. For if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, "the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341-342]

“All believers are like poor Lazarus; and every believer is a true Lazarus, for he is of the same faith, mind and will, as Lazarus. And whoever will not be a Lazarus, will surely have his portion with the rich glutton in the flames of hell. For we all must like Lazarus trust in God, surrender ourselves to him to work in us according to his own good pleasure, and be ready to serve all men. And although we all do not suffer from such sores and poverty, yet the same mind and will must be in us, that were in Lazarus, cheerfully to bear such things, wherever God wills it.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:25]

“This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

“Works are a certain sign, like a seal on a letter, which make me certain that my faith is genuine. [cf. 1Jn. 5:13] As a result if I examine my heart and find that my works are done in love, then I am certain that my faith is genuine. If I forgive, then my forgiving makes me certain that my faith is genuine and assures me and demonstrates my faith to me.” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106]

“Hence the beginning of goodness or Godliness is not in us, but in the Word of God. God must first let his Word sound in our hearts by which we learn to know and to believe him, and afterwards do good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:339]

“When works follow it becomes apparent that we have faith…” [Martin Luther, as cited by Paul Althaus, The Theology of Martin Luther [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1963], 247, footnote 106

“..that alone can be called Christian faith, which believes without wavering that Christ is the Saviour not only to Peter and to the saints but also to you....Such a faith will work in you love for Christ and joy in him, and good works will naturally follow. If they do not, faith is surely not present: for where faith is, there the Holy Ghost is and must work love and good works.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 1:21-22]

[MHGinTN]

Is one born again and then good works follow, or is one not born again until some time in the future and to get to that reckoning one has to have good works?

[GBA]

I’ve got to admit, your religion is conveniently confusing.

If I understand what you are saying, if you are born again, you cannot sin, right?

All your works are good since you’re born again?

So, if you, who are born again, do something that would normally be a sin for someone who isn’t born again, adultery, theft, false witness, etc., it really isn’t a sin for you because you’re born again?

Or, is any committed sin you might do proof that you really aren’t born again, after all?

Do you have to focus on Christ and try to follow His bloody Footsteps or is it the other way around?

[GBA]

Yes, and what I asked about comes after that.

I thought you were saying that Judas was not replaced, so I asked about Mathias.

Never mind. It’s not important. Sorry for the bother