Posted on 05/08/2020 4:37:58 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
Agreed. And I think many believers are coming to this understanding through careful study and ongoing dialogue.
Unfortunately, Biblical topics seem to bring about the worst sorts of heated debates as well. I engaged in more than my share of these over the years here, but I have worked hard during the past several months to change this.
I am a passionate advocate for what is called the “pre-wrath” rapture. But I do not want to get into heated arguments; I do not condemn those who have other views as heretics; and I try to keep an open mind to the possibility that I could be wrong or that my position needs some minor corrections.
These discussions have only served to make me more confident in this position as I have been forced to address numerous objections and study the Bible in greater depth.
......”There is no such place or behavior mechanism cleanser as purgatory”.....
The teaching of the process of purification which the catholic curch calls purgatory, “so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven”....then the sufficiency of Jesus Christ is non-existent, unbelieved.
We can know that there is no purgatory simply because the it’s writtn..... “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Cor. 5:21) ......It’s the great exchange by which we can lose our sins and gain His righteousness, and if we have His righteousness, we are cleansed of sin. We need no further purification.
Unfortunately, Biblical topics seem to bring about the worst sorts of heated debates as well. I engaged in more than my share of these over the years here, but I have worked hard during the past several months to change this.
Likewise...
Very true!
Traditions and doctrine are important and many years ago churches began focusing on “feelings.”
Churches are less focused on teaching and instruction and more focused on making sure folks have a “good experience,” while at church. After all, if they don’t, they will simply go down the street to the next church that does. A consequence of a society where people have been taught to be consumers and where it’s all about one self.
The problem with that is as churches compete for folks:
(1) They are willing to distort the message (by omission or reinterpretation usually). Why you have every contemporary idea possible incorporated in churches in the US: feminism (Methodists did that early on), socialism (Catholics are on that wagon today, homo agenda (The ELCA jumped on that one early on)... From global warming to having my favorite pet in heaven with me, in America you can find it all!
(2) Folks sit there and feel good but are ignorant as to what the actual teachings are (little of substance being taught). Some can go to a church for 10 years and if you ask them the most basic questions they have no clue because they never received any real formal education on what it means to be a Christian. To them it’s just a feeling, like going to the movies.
(3) There are no actions backing up what the folks say they believe in. So they act and make decisions that are secular and a-moral Monday - Saturday, but then put on their religious hat and think that they are Christians and promised paradise because they say they believe in Jesus. After all, you don’t go to heaven through your works. This allows for American society to maintain their dichotomy of lying to a poor lady at a car dealership, but then feeling good about yourself while at church. Killing babies six days a week, but then feeling good about oneself at church (Heck, even George Tiller the infamous late term abortionist was an usher at his Lutheran church). Ripping people off with financial services at a bank and committing ursery (that’s a concept not taught anywhere in America - Usery just sort of disappeared) but then feeling good about oneself on Sunday. This is a really cool concept: you don’t need to be a Christian to be a Christian. After all, it’s faith alone! Come to my church and yell Hallelujah three times, say you really believe, and that’s it. Tomorrow you can go back to your family law practice and tear families apart or torture someone in a enhanced interrogation. LOL
God is not the author opf sin, the deadness of the soul is the author. The natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit for they are spiritually discerned. If there is no change in evidence it is likely the mouther does not have God abiding in his/her spirit.
Do not lump all into one lump, as if there is some behavior necessary to get born again. God does that for those who truly trust in Jesus as Savior. And then ... but wait, there's more! Live long enough after being born again and God's character will be evidenced. For some it happens immediately. For others it takes chastening to turn the soul around to face GOD's Presence, and tremble. And I offer this from experience not rhetoric.
I think it’s to late.
This place has drifted so far off the path, even the churches following the masses not leading them have wondered so far, that there is no way back. IMHO-
I do not believe in “prosperity teachings,” another American Christian thing, do XYZ and you’ll be successful. However, I do believe that the classic Christian teachings/values at a macro level contribute to the success of a society. Individually you can do everything right and still get cancer at 50 and die, but at a macro level averages start to compensate for that. Classical/traditional Christian values basically teach the basic tenets that make any society successful (a secular view) even if not Christian.
You have the idea of being productive/hard working, value life, marriage and children, you are taught that corruption is wrong, you are taught to get along and even help each other, lying/cheating/stealing are all wrong... Successful societies have certain values in common, i.e. time sensitivity, the value of labor/productivity, value of life, aversion to corruption, willingness to incorporate technology, willingness to use force. For example, look at the wealthy nations and the poor nations on this earth, then look at who is more and less corrupt (coincidence?): https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 Of course in America we’d say it’s all because of “racism.” LOL
Societies that prosper have certain values, may they be Christian or not (The Chinese a long time ago were highly advanced and successful, but not Christian). With the loss of our Christian values, we are also losing those values that made us succeed. Consumerism and the drift by Christian churches, globalization, and the rise of the left (secular/atheists) in America are contributing to this phenomena. You cannot long term be successful and not value life, like German society today you will go extinct and be replaced in your own borders. You cannot be successful and be lazy (sloth), or like the Jamaicans you get nothing done. You cannot be corrupt like many Arabs and folks from the Middle East. You cannot be a pacifist or reject technology like the Amish that only survive because of the benevolence of the society hosting them. You cannot lack time sensitivity and have complex industrial activities or conduct warfare which require the synchronization of resources in time and space to work properly. You cannot have a heterogeneous society with values that are in conflict as these societies rip themselves apart with internal strife... As we reject those those values which made us great, we will also begin to slip, which we already are.
America is running off the inertia from her glorious and highly successful past. We are a massive ship that was steaming ahead at a high rate of speed. It takes a long time for such a ship to stop moving even when the engines have stopped running.
works based salvation
.......................................
Works-based salvation is a fiction concocted by the so-called Reformers to convince the “Sheeple” that acts of lawlessness and sin forbidden by God and His Church, whether committed in their past or in their future, or any of their other failures to do what God and His Church have commanded, would have no adverse consequences relative to their eternal salvation. In other words the “cheap-grace” heresy of Sola Fide was promulgated which has lured countless souls to perdition over the past 500 years. See Paul’s Second Epistle to Timothy, Chapter 4.
I don’t care for religions based on feelings at all. Feelings are too changing to put any kind of faith in.
Traditions and doctrines OF MEN mean nothing to me either. Men are FALLIBLE, no matter WHO tells them they AREN’T...
My doctrine comes from God’s word, period. 2 Timothy 2:15 shows us how God wants us to study His word. Not just READ it, but actually STUDY it.
God's Grace is not cheap. Jesus gave His Life to obtain it for all who believe Whom God sent for their salvation:
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed.29 Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.
40And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.
64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 65 And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
68 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we have believed and have known that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
Therein is the Gospel of the Grace of God in Christ. Therein is the means to eternal life as God's gift for ALL who believe in Whom He sent for their salvation. And it is not cheap.
You may be correct that it is too late, for the taboo struxcture of the Constitutional Republic has been crumbled.
ping, Sir.
God’s Grace is not cheap.
..................................
Absolutely true. It’s the doctrine of Sola Fide that’s a “cheap grace” heresy, not God’s Grace. His Grace and “cheap grace” are entirely different things, and you would know that had you not been indoctrinated to believe they are one and the same!
Martin Luther (not that he didn't have his many faults) didn't invent it. Like Paul, he tried to explain it. More don't understand the concept than do; especially today. Now it's called, "once saved, always saved" (OSAS), its followers believe themselves incapable of sinning. I think it's the iniquity infiltrating the church we were warned would happen in these days.
Peter in 2 Peter 3:16 mentions this, in reference to Paul:
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
People twist the concept around to mean what they want it to mean. But it's really quite a simple concept in the purest sense.
Yeshua (Christ) talked about it often:
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Those pure in heart have the commandments written on their heart. A Christian in the truest sense receives a new heart complete with all ten commandments inscribed upon it (if I may be so bold).
You will know them by their fruits.
"Their fruits", not by the fruits of others telling them how to act or how to behave, especially not being coerced by some church, with its own set of laws and doctrines, telling them how to act or behave, in regard to honoring God, or how to treat others; with a warning of consequences if they don't.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! First cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Similarly, We have laws that govern our nation, but:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
- Adams
Rules and laws will never replace goodness and righteousness. They only serve as guideposts when the morality of a people, or person, waxes and wains.
And quite often, the laws themselves are added or altered to support the most heinous of crimes, such as in 1973, when the USSC upheld Roe vs. Wade which legalized the taking of the most innocent of human life.
LOL, you make assertions with insult wrapped around them. You must be a catholic.
The issue is that all the words straight from the Bible get interpreted by clergy and ourselves, viewed through the lenses of the times we live in, experiences we’ve had, assumptions we make, prejudices we hold, etc.
Who still talks about usery today? You have churches or denominations today that run their own credit unions!
https://www.openbible.info/topics/usury
That was a huge deal a long time ago.
What about those unequally yolked marriages. Think real hard if that concept today is applied the same way it was interpreted by MOST US churches in 1960.
When you have no traditions, when you have no real doctrine, when you have no laying of hands (apostolic succession), when the clergy do not know the classic languages, have not traveled and laid foot on the actual soil where the events of Jesus occurred, when these clergy are educated in online courses that take a mere matter of months to complete, you have no more than the blind leading the blind. They may sound convincing and employ good rhetoric, what comes out of their mouth sounds “religious,” gets a crowd going, but the problem is the crowd is going in the wrong direction.
In the US, nation of homo marriage, female pastors, pet heaven, automatic forgiveness of sins (just hold the hand a bit higher in the air to feel that spirit if you sinned really bad), open communion, rapture, holy underwear, but of course alcohol became a huge sin in some of the churches (remnants of the temperance movement), Voodoo rituals in a church, and a patron saint for drug dealers. Anything is possible, and it’s all biblical according to the people that follow it. You have 60 main stream denominations that in practice and teachings vary widely even in what they say is right or wrong, and they all claim to take it straight from the Bible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_Malverde You can’t make this stuff up!
You have clergy that are clueless, Bibles that have been translated and rewritten many times, and folks going to church for a “feeling” and if they don’t get what they want they go somewhere else.
My entire diatribes can be summarized with 2 points: (1) Be careful, someone that smiles a lot and tells you things you want to hear or which may make you “feel good” may not be a good shepherd. (2) In the US with all our divisions not only are Christians divided and weak (attacking each other and not standing united on common ground issues), some of the craziness you see in some of these churches is discrediting or making Christianity into a joke and long term will cause damage.
Who do you think???
Funny...so were the early believers Peter and Jude warned! Odd that you think being a scoffer is something to admire.
What do you think is really behind this snarly, snide bashing of Christians who believe in the Rapture? There is a FAR more Biblical basis for it than "Purgatory", for example. Some people must be awfully bored through this pandemic "time out" that they have to vent on a Religion Forum thread.
AMEN!
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