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To: MHGinTN; Luircin; imardmd1; Iscool; Mark17; aMorePerfectUnion; 2nd amendment mama; boatbums; ...
What is missing in all these discussions about works and faith is the Catholic's understanding of the new birth and the new nature.

Catholicism focuses on the works and the outward activities, and has no concept of receiving a new nature through the new birth, on that does not want to sin, one that wants to please God, one that is Christlike and Spirit directed.

It is beyond their comprehension that someone could be born again and not know it.

When that change comes into your life, it's unfathomable. They seem to think that intellectual assent with their works added to avoid hellfire is equivalent to saving faith that makes a new creation out of a person.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

And Romans 7 describes the struggle with sin that we all have.

696 posted on 09/15/2019 6:49:41 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom; MHGinTN; Luircin; imardmd1; Iscool; Mark17; aMorePerfectUnion; 2nd amendment mama; ...
What is missing in all these discussions about works and faith is the Catholic's understanding of the new birth and the new nature. Catholicism focuses on the works and the outward activities, and has no concept of receiving a new nature through the new birth, on that does not want to sin, one that wants to please God, one that is Christlike and Spirit directed.

Actually in RC theology justification is because one receives a new nature, (Titus 3:5) imagining that the act itself ( ex opere operato) of baptism (even without the Scriptural requirement of penitential faith: Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) effects regeneration which "infuses” charity into the soul, rendering the regenerate to be justified by his own interior righteousness due to it actually becoming good to be with God.

"when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity." (Trent, Cp. VII)

Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis). (Catholic Encyclopedia> Sanctifying Grace)

But under the premise that one must actually become good enough to be with God, then since the sinful nature is all too alive after baptism and manifests itself, then unless one dies having attained to this state (we with the rare class of canonized saints), then one must suffer purifying torments in mythical RC purgatory until he becoming good enough to actually enter Heaven. (However, see "Did the New Testament church believe in Roman Catholic Purgatory?" )

Moreover, this Catholic view of justification thru sanctification was not binding before Trent. For as Newman states, that among others,

First, Bellarmine, though he quotes the words of the Tridentine Fathers, declaratory of the "unica formalis causa" of Justification (de Justif. ii. 2), does not hesitate to say that it is an open question whether grace or charity is the justice which justifies; and, though he holds for his own part that these are different names for one and the same supernatural habit, yet he allows that there are theologians who think otherwise (ibid. i. 2).

Though, then, there be but one formal cause (and there never can be more than one proper form of anything), still it is not settled precisely what that form is. We are at liberty to hold that it is, not the renewed state of the soul, but the Divine gift which renews it.- http://www.newmanreader.org/works/justification/

And in "Was The Joint Declaration Truly Justified? | An Interview with Dr. Christopher Malloy | Carl E. Olson" we read,

what is noteworthy is that at the Council of Trent, a number of theologians present held views that can readily be discerned to be "compromise" positions between a) what became Tridentine Catholic teaching and b) common elements of certain Lutheranisms--I will call the latter "traditional Lutheran teaching". By "traditional Lutheran teaching" I use a place-holder to designate one way of reading the Lutheran heritage, granting of course that many scholars argue that there are sundry and contradictory ways of reading that same heritage, some going all the way back.

Foremost among the theologians seeking a compromise at Trent was Seripando, a papal legate. At the Council, he put forth a view on justification that has been called "double justice". His position implied two formal causes of justification. He argued that the human person stands "just" before God both by his interior, infused righteousness and by Christ's own righteousness attributed to him through the acquitting favor of God.

Seripando's position had the following logical correlate: The justified person cannot truly merit eternal life and is not therefore worthy of heaven--even though God has begun to renovate him interiorly. The implication is clear: The justified person would, if judged by God, be worthy of hell. Only a few outstanding saints might be exceptions to the rule. Hence, the justified person needs yet another justice by which to be considered just--the justice of Christ, imputed to him.

The Council of Trent decidedly rejected this theory of double justice. The interior justice infused by God, together with the obedience issuing therefrom, suffice the Christian before the judgment seat of God. - http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/print2007/cmalloy_intervw_jun07.html

And pertinent to this are the words of Hardon:

The multiplicity of theological positions present within the Catholic Church. These positions vary according to which premises or postulates are used in reflecting on the sources of revelation, according to the methodology employed, and according to the cultural tradition within which theology does its speculation. On the first bases, the two principal philosophical premises are the Platonic, stressed in Augustinianaism; and the Aristotelian, emphasized in Thomism. On the second level, theologies differ in terms of their mainly biblical, or doctrinal, or historical, or pastoral methodology. And on the third basis, the culture of a people helps to shape the theology they develop, as between the more mystical East and the more practical West, or the more reflective Mediterranean and the more scientific Anglo-Saxon. The Church not only permits these diversities but encourages them, always assuming that theologians who are Catholic are also respectful of the rule of faith and obedient to the magisterium of the hierarchy under the Bishop of Rome. — Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=35612

Rome actually allows for salvation by pure unmerited grace in her baptism by desire, obtained through perfect contrition (contritio caritate perfecta, which, works ex opere operantis: Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace), but which is something that some in her Traditional sects disagree with. Meanwhile purely unmerited justification is understood as referring to the call of God in His prevenient grace, in which

"without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace." (Trent, Cp. V.)

"by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner, or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance" (the latter of which can be appropriated by proxy), the justified are "really made just [righteous], and not merely declared or reputed so." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Salvation>Baptism)

Then, via the sacramental system, grace is dispensed from Rome's infinite Treasury of merit, that of Christ and of the excess merit of saints, and by cooperating with such the saved Catholic is "accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life. (Trent, Cp XVI. http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06.htm)

In summary, Rome believes that initial justification is by pure grace, via interior transformation, which it usually makes dependent upon a ritual, that being baptism, which by the very act is held to effect regeneration, which thus justifies the soul due to inner holiness, which means the same must have this state at death or attain it in RC Purgatory.

In contrast to this is the heart-purifying faith behind baptism being counted for righteousness, (Acts 15:8,9) s that one is accepted in the Beloved on His account, and spiritually made to sit with Him in Heaven, and will forever be with the Lord at death or His return, whatever comes first. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

Under the RC means of transformational justification by sanctification, if coupled with the affirmation of Abraham being justified by works, then Abraham must have becoming born when he offered up Issac, rather than faith being imputed for righteousness when he believed God to do what he was helpless to do, though that faith meant obeying God.

RC apologists describe sola fide as merely rendering man to be a whitewashed sinner, but which is simply not true, for sola fide is that of the heart-purifying faith of the "washing of regeneration." (Titus 3:5) However,Reformed sola fide teaching holds that it is not the sanctifying effect of regeneration that is the cause of justification (though in turn, holiness and works of faith evidence/vindicate/justify one as being a believer) but imputed righteousness. (Rm. 4:5)

Note also that while Catholics generally believe that the newly baptized would go directly to Heaven if they died before they sinned, seeing as they as washed from their sins and have no more need for further expiation of sin (and dealing with that would be another chapter).

However, in RC purgatorial theology it seems being purged from sins and having no need for further atonement is enough to enter Heaven. For it is held that one must attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character, but which maturity regeneration does not effect, for the unholy sinful nature, which is to be reckoned dead, it all too alive.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.) And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)

Likewise,

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999. Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states, "...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224 "The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants).

Roman Catholics also invoke Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) as if this exhortation to be like God was a requirement to be with God, actually presuming that that they can attain the perfection of God in this life or in RC purgatory!

Thus regeneration itself would not be sufficient for the soul to enter Heaven, and it must be imagined that men such as the contrite criminal of Lk. 23 somehow attained to perfection of character in a few hours on the cross.

In conclusion, salvation by faith means that contrite heart-purifying faith (Acts 15:9) is counted for righteousness, justifying the sinner without works, (Rm. 4:5) and while this is not to be divorced from regeneration, that does not mean that the believer has actually become good enough in his whole character to be with God, or that he must be in this life or in Purgatory. But is accepted in the Beloved on His account, and has access by His blood into the holy of holies, and will go to forever be with the Lord at death or His return, whatever comes first. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

762 posted on 09/16/2019 5:38:48 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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