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To: HarleyD
3) John states in Revelation 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." John didn't look at the tribulation as something that was to come but was already happening.

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 

Many, myself included do not see this day as a Sunday but during the time of the return of Jesus at the end of the Great Tribulation...Which already puts John in the future...

Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 

John WAS in the isle but he was swept away to the future...

Not a single Apostle or early church Father has let out a peep about the past Great Tribulation having taken place...Those events that take place during the Tribulation would be etched in the minds of anyone connected to the church for generations to come...It hasn't happened yet...

So with John standing in the future he is instructed to write:

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen,
Events in the church age which are past, which goes from Rev. 1 to Rev. 4...

and the things which are,
The events that to us take place in the future during the Great Tribulation which occurs from Rev. 4 to Rev. 19...

and the things which shall be hereafter; 
That which happens after the Great Tribulation which includes Rev. 20 to the end...

1) Christ return is suppose to be like "a thief in the night". We are to watch and pray. If we are not currently in a tribulation, then we know that Christ return is not eminent. Same problem exist with the rebuilding of the temple. Christ isn't going to return like a thief until the temple is rebuilt.

According to both Testaments Jesus as the Messiah, Lord of Lords and King of Kings is going to set up his kingdom on earth at his return at the culmination of the Great Tribulation...And when that happens,

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 

No one is going anywhere...Jesus is not there as a thief...When Jesus comes as a thief the first time it will be at the Rapture...

2) According to tribulation theory, the church (and Holy Spirit) will be pulled out of the world (raptured) while other believers will go through the tribulation. This has a problem in that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment. If the Holy Spirit is gone, then who is going to convict the world?

The 144,000 special spirit filled preachers who will head out across the world to convict people of their sins...But most of the world won't be convicted...Most of the people of the world will be killed...
These people, while saved, will not be part of the church/bride...The gospels talk a bit about the Wedding of the Bride/Church and it also mentions people who are 'friends' of the Bride and others who are 'guests' at the wedding...This seems to escape the study of a lot of Christians...

3) John states in Revelation 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." John didn't look at the tribulation as something that was to come but was already happening. Paul likewise talks of us going through tribulation (e.g. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35 is one place)

This is the normal tribulation that all Christians go thru at one time or another...This is not the Great Tribulation where God unleashes his wrath upon the enemies of Israel...

That's the way I see it thru my study of the bible comparing scripture with scripture...

171 posted on 07/23/2019 7:53:54 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
It is difficult to argue that John was swept into the future in John 1:9, wrote about the present churches in chapters 1-4, and then talked about future events which would happen sometime in the distant future.

It is impossible to have a special 144,000 “spirit” filled people when the church, which draws it strength from the Holy Spirit, is removed. It is also not consistent with the working of God that He would signal out 144,000 special people to go through a horrible tribulation.

Also a clincher for me is the idea that God made physical promises to the nation Israel and spiritual promises to Abraham. This completely contradicts Galatians 3 which tells us all the promises made to Abraham were spiritual promises.

Eschatology is a very difficult subject. Numerous Bibles that I have are dispensation Bibles meaning their notes refer to their dispensation model. Their notes and references are tainted. However, there are other views. One view is that Revelation was written in symbolic language as an encouragement to believers. It talks about events that we are going through NOW-not in the future-from various perspectives (e.g. government, people, institutions, etc.). Frankly, I had to reread Revelation to see if these things might be. It makes sense to read it this way. It is a circular book looking at the present tribulation we are in now experiencing from different perspectives. It is not linear. If you take this view it matches with the writing style of 1 John which is also circular. It also matches Daniel and Ezekiel which talk about government institutions as well.

I would just encourage a bit more study.

199 posted on 07/24/2019 3:22:36 AM PDT by HarleyD
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