PRE- OR POST-TRIB RAPTURE? (ORIGINAL)

The Berean Call ^ | Oct 1, 2003 | Dave Hunt

[Cvengr]

bump

[boatbums]

In Rev 5, the souls under that alter ask, "How long?", clearly showing God's wrath hasn't started yet. Actually, God's wrath doesn't occur until the first bowl of wrath, right after the seventh and LAST trumpet.

Revelation 6, actually:

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

There will be people who turn to Christ in faith throughout the Tribulation period and who are martyred for it. It sounds like there will be quite a bit of the wrath of God poured out upon the earth even before the seven bowls of the wrath of God spoken of in Revelation 15-17. The Seven Seals included war, famine, death and terror.

[ravenwolf]

Seventy weeks was determined to scatter the power of the holy people
Jesus was crusafide in the middle of the week, about three and one half
years later Steven was killed the result being that many believers left
and went to places such as Antioch and started preaching the gospel
T
therefore full filling danials 70 weeks, makes sense to me but I don’t know.

[trebb]

Doesn’t matter to me - ether way it’s gonna be....rapturous...

[WXRGina]

Yes, I know all the pre-tribulation arguments well, and I know the tribulation period will be all the unprecedented horror that Jesus told us it would be, and yet I still don’t see TWO second comings of Jesus in Scripture. Those verses in Psalms 91 point out how God protects us. Regardless, time will tell. It’s not a make-or-break salvation issue.

[fwdude]

...the Rapture might start the whole seventieth week of Daniel.

My own humble opinion is that, with the rate of apostasy we're seeing, there will be so few believers at that time that their disappearance will make few waves in the entire scheme of things.

[fwdude]

I agree. It’s not a salvation deal breaker.

What I watch for, though, is a furtive spirit of unbelief in ANY event of resurrection. Those who pooh pooh the pre-trib rapture are often of this persuasion.

[Boogieman]

I’ve already read as much of it as I can stomach. When there are so many basic errors in the first few paragraphs, I generally don’t waste my time slogging through the rest.

[Boogieman]

“The tribulation is to fulfill abrahams covenant so his children will be saved.”

Where does the Bible say that?

“Only jews will be saved during the tribulation”

Where does the Bible say that?

[Boogieman]

“Jesus was crusafide in the middle of the week, about three and one half years later Steven was killed the result being that many believers left and went to places such as Antioch and started preaching the gospel therefore full filling danials 70 weeks”

Well, go back and look at Matthew 24. In that chapter, Jesus is telling his disciples about the tribulation and the end of the world, and he specifically references the prophecy of Daniel’s 70 weeks:

“15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

Now, we know he isn’t simply telling them to flee because the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is coming, because a verse prior to this we are told:

“14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

The gospel was not preached in all the world before 70 AD, and the end of the world certainly didn’t come then. So the reference in verses 15 and 16 to Daniel are pointing out that those verses will have a fulfillment further in the future. This is confirmed in verse 21:

“21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

So this seems to pinpoint that the events that Daniel spoke about, at least from the midpoint of the 70th week, are happening just before the great tribulation that is referenced by the other passages in the NT and detailed in Revelation.

Now, there are obviously some issues with that, since, as you noted, if you calculate the years since the proclamation to rebuild the temple until the time of Jesus, it does seem to match with Daniel’s chronology. There are multiple ways that people interpret the passages to try and match up with actual events, some placing Jesus’ death at the midpoint of the 70th week, and others placing it at the end of the 69th week. Either way, we are left with either half a week or a full week of years that seem to happen after Christ’s death, but not immediately after, since Jesus speaks of them in Matthew 24 as accompanying the events at the end of the world.

[rebel25]

I am at work on a phone so ill give a quick answer, based on my memory. I remember it taught in church like 10 years ago and it stuck. God promised redemption to jews as his chosen people, that has not happened as they are still looking for his coming. The church will be raptured and with it goes the holy spirit from among the gentiles. The two witnesses will be preaching from jerusalem and they will realize the blood of Christ on their hands and repent, while in second thessalonians’s it tells that those that reject Christ now, inferred as not having his promises which is gentiles, will be turned over to the great delusion and fall under the antichrist. God has his chosen people that he promised to bless snd the tribulation will be that redemption for them.

[rebel25]

Gods word can speak of past present and future simultaneously, it is a Divine work. Those words were simultaneously speaking of 70 ad and the rapture, leatlrn of the prophetic nature of the jewish feast given to moses.

[Boogieman]

Yes, I am familiar with that general type of teaching, I just was hoping someone could point out to me where exactly they found the basis of that teaching in the Bible, since I have never been able to locate it.

[ShadowAce]

The Bible clearly teaches the Church is not appointed to wrath, and as the bowl judgements are clearly spelled out as God pouring out his wrath it would follow the Church would not be present at that time.

The Church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of The Revelation.

[Mom MD]

firmly in the pre trib camp here. it there is a third possibility the pre wrath (mid trib) rapture. maranatha!

[Mom MD]

there are two second comings. one suddenly for the Church and one exactly 7 years after the treaty is signed with the Church

[Sans-Culotte]

Plenty of Bible scholars argue He came already. In 70 AD.

I would be in that camp. I don't believe any of this Late Great Planet Earth/Left Behind/pre-trib stuff.

[aimhigh]

The Seven Seals included war, famine, death and terror.

All things common to the last 2000 years.

[rebel25]

The new Heaven and new Earth are just as real as anything in the Bible. John the revelator son of zebedee gave a very detailed account of the new heaven

[BornToBeAmerican]

I do not believe so, because if Jesus said he would return in the same generation as those he was speaking with, only one of two alternatives can occur.

1. He did: He was truthful and fulfilled his promise
2. He didn’t: He was mistaken, a fool or both

One cannot pretend the Scriptures say one thing without discounting something else. Of course God’s words are timeless; but even more than that they are TRUTH. What say you? The Disciples asked Jesus for a sign regarding his return (they understood what ‘this generation’ and ‘some standing here’ to mean exactly that)

So do you believe Jesus has returned or not? If he has NOT returned, do you believe that he was mistaken, a fool or even a liar.

How can one so easily question and outright reject Jesus’s own words. Look up the Arabic, see for yourself. Jesus is not a supermarket where you can pick and choose what you want. Sorry, Jesus is ALL or NOTHING. If you were to be true to yourself, you would say: “I don’t understand it, but Jesus said it would happen and I believe it did.”