HIS Word contains all necessary for salvation, assurance and instruction in godliness.
That is, if one listens, accepts and follows the words of Jesus. I hope that you believe in all of God’s words in the Bible as they were meant, and not just someone’s personal interpretation.
Jesus said about His Church: ‘Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
“If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”
Your comment: “every church and every man gets things wrong in every age - and this is especially true of Rome.”
Then, it must be especially true for you too.
Believers in Christ are commanded to "love Him with all their mind..."Jesus said about His Church: ‘Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Believers are commanded to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth."It is the responsibility of the Christian to work hard to understand and interpret God's Word.
No, dear ADSUM... He didn't say it "about His Church". There was no church when He said this.“If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”Now is a great time for you to "Study to show yourself approved..."
Look back on the context - when did He say this, why did He say this, about who did He say this?
Completely about church discipline in the local assembly.Your comment: “every church and every man gets things wrong in every age - and this is especially true of Rome.” Then, it must be especially true for you too."Study to show youself approved."
Not especially. I've benefited from incredible teachers of God's Word, deep training, hard work, love of His Word.That said, everyone is subject to error, but the ultimate mistake is to substitute man's silly rituals for God's declaration.
Matthew 23:1-12 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Bless your confused priest heart, the word church is an English term, translating ‘ekklesia’ which in Greek is BODY OF BELIEVERS, not Roman Catholic Church, body of ALL believers.
And the same Jesus rebuked the censorious spirit of those who held to "not of our church-no authority" clubs in affirming a man who manifestly did ministry in the name of the Lord:
HIS Word contains all necessary for salvation, assurance and instruction in godliness. That is, if one listens, accepts and follows the words of Jesus. I hope that you believe in all of God’s words in the Bible as they were meant, and not just someone’s personal interpretation. Jesus said about His Church: ‘Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” “If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”.”
Which is simply your erroneous isolationist interpretation, using two different portions of Scripture, in which the former paraphrase refers to the basic message or repentance that the Lord sent His disciple out to preach, (Luke 10:1-16) and simply does not translate into the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility of office as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).
Meanwhile the second (Matthew 18:15-17) refers to the communal, under leadership, judicial disfellowship of the impenitent in a case of personal offense, though in principle it extends to other controversies, and which flows from the OT authoritative binding magisterial office. To which conditional obedience is enjoined, and disobedience punished, (Dt. 17:8-13) but which was not infallible nor was this charism ever promised or essential for preserving faith.
And while as those who sat in the seat of Moses were reproved by itinerant preachers and a Preacher who established their truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, Scripture reproves Rome whose distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.
Therefore, while condemning false interpretation, you are guilty of it if teaching that all that Rome officially teaches is to be submitted to, under the false premise of ensured veracity.
“If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”
Two unrelated verses taken out of context.
Jesus' comment about listening to the church is strictly in the matter of resolving disputes between believers.
It is NOT about establishing the absolute authority of one church governing body over all believers for all of the church age nor is it anything at all about establishing a church hierarchy or anything remotely resembling the papacy.
Nor does it mean by default Roman Catholicism, in spite of their retroactive claim that Jesus is talking about that particular denomination.
Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
Basically all He's doing is telling the procedure for settling disputes and how to treat a person who will not listen.
It doesn't say they are going to hell or they've been ex-communicated. There was no recognition of *church membership* in those days so you can't even claim it's equivalent to removing them from the membership rolls (which I have no problem with.)
It's simply to treat them as an unbeliever, and that does NOT mean what many people think it does these days.
Jesus tells us how to relate to those who are considered our enemies in the Beatitudes.