“Catholics don’t care if the Pope is a heretic or apostate?”
I can’t speak for others, but I took this comment to mean that most don’t let it worry them, rather than not caring at all.
“Freeper Catholics think that the Pope is a heretic. A very dangerous one, too.”
Without reading the Caucus posts except for what I see in the headlines and on the main page, I was starting to gather that. However, I did not realize it was possible to hold that view and be Catholic.
“But that doesn’t mean we leave the Church like silly, frightened sheep. Not after 2,000 years we don’t.”
Protestants do not see the Reformation as “leaving the Church” because Protestants consider that the people themselves are the Church. So, in essence, it is impossible to leave. But this definition refers to the Invisible Church.
That being said, is the Catholic remedy to this to speak out and wait until the current Pope is replaced? I’m just a bit confused with how these apparently contradictory views can be held. Again, I’m not intending to be argumentative. Am I correct in my understanding that you believe in Apostolic succession, but that it is also possible for even a Pope who was ordained by God to be Pope to turn out to be a heretic? Or would that mean that the officially recognized Pope is not the true Pope, but the true Pope is someone else, perhaps somewhere in hiding?
And is there ever a point at which corruption on the inside of the Visible Church or its leaders would warrant, in your mind, the type of Reformation that started the Protestant movement? Or is the remedy always within the hierarchical organization of the Visible Church? I may be asking these question in a wrong way or misusing the terminology, but hopefully you can follow what I’m getting at.
And regardless of the means by which the Pope’s errors are addressed, how likely is it that the Catholic Church as a whole could change its official public stance on abortion and homosexuality? I’ve always assumed that these were things that could never change.
A “reformation” is inconceivable. Catholicism is a closed circle. No one uses the word reformation except in reference to the events of the past. To Catholics, unity is more important than doctrine! (Except trads who the pope would like to see all drop dead due to their obsession with remaking the Church back to 1950).
Change has been ongoing for 200 years in sync with the same changes everywhere, theosophy, romanticism, modernism, postmod, post christian, post-truth, whatever, there are a ton of names applying to 18th century, rural religion-dominated society to today’s secular, violent society.
The new group in Church hierarchy has come to the forefront. It has all the characteristics of secular contemporary life. Its moral code is aligning with the reality of deconstructionism.
Bergoglio’s goal was to change the church or as Cardinal Wuerl said, “put it back on the map.”. So homosexuality was bad in past, and that was also the secular view. Church has now fully embraced and glorified it. Every gay is adorable, in culture and in Church.
These changes are made or haphazardly applied 100% TOP down. Your average Catholic has no idea what is happening with important stuff. Trads follow a bit more closely because they feel this is a crisis. The Church will probably be unrecognizable if present rulers carry on with plans to match Church to culture (agw, socialism, immigration, gay, etc). Catholics will pick bits and pieces as time passes.
Abortion and life issues (euthanasia, ivf, life support) are the Church’s strength. I thought they could never channge, they are all based to same tenets of human dignity and human immortal soul. But in recent baby killing in Britain, some (Paglia, etc) churchmen veered just slightly to a vague interpretation of life!