LGBT ‘Catholic’ groups:If Pope can reverse ...teaching on death penalty, why not homosex?

LifeSite News ^ | August 3, 2018 | Dorothy Cummings McLean

[mdmathis6]

“and the duty thence arising of submission to the pope in order to belong to the Church,

and thus to attain salvation.”

Why I would never be a Catholic....you can’t follow a man who is promulgating evil, no matter how high he is up in a spiritual hierarchy built by men. If the “ eye is darkened then the body is full of darkness”.

[Elsie]

So, without rehashing the endless Protestant / Catholic debates I am trying to make sense of the Catholic perspective on this subject.

Good luck!

There may be a CLAIMED 'Catholic persective' on things; but the FACTS are that there is NO Catholic unity of thought on many facets of the Roman religion.

[Elsie]

I think what he’s asking is, “If the belief that the Holy Spirit guides the Church and protects her against error is true, the how do you explain Francis?”

My question is similar:

“If the Holy Spirit is supposed to be guiding the Church and protects it against error; the how do you explain the apparition named 'Mary'?”

[Elsie]

The Church is big, it’s monumental, it’s gorgeous, it’s the sole bastion of sanctity in the world.

You've left out arrogant.

[Elsie]

You know there was a time in history when there were two competing popes?

A 'protester' pope that predates Luther's creation.

[Elsie]

The church cannot change its teaching.

It can sure as HELL 'change' how it practices what it preaches and what is currently fashionable!

[Elsie]

Simply repost it by a non-Catholic and then allow it to go forward without the designation so the insults can begin?

You mean like:

He's not MY pope?

He's a HERETIC!!

He's a COMMUNIST!!!

He's an APOSTATE!!!!

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Heck; a lurker might get the idea that Francis is as foul as a; SPIT!; Protestant.

[Elsie]

It's more like "everything the Church has said for 2000 years".

REALLY???

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As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18 (And less understood)

 

 

 

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Augustine, sermon:

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

• Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

• Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

• Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

• Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

• Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

[Elsie]

I don’t see how anyone can hold the view of Apostolic succession and simultaneously believe a Pope could be a heretic or apostate.

The Bible says (if you can believe it) that a '...double minded man is unstable in all his ways.'

[Elsie]

I’ve heard arguments that most of the claims of Protestants about historical abuses of the Catholic Church are simply fabrications.

Perhaps leading to the phrase about smoke being blown up one's rectum.

[Elsie]

But I don’t think this is supposed to close off all debate and discussion on the subject matter or particular news item.

Historically; when the Church has spoken...

[Elsie]

I’m not trying to stir up a debate on the topic.

Any Prot that DARES open his/her mouth against the One True Church is in danger of the vilest retribution from the other cheek turners.

[Elsie]

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

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To: ebb tide

It’s very hard not to be suspicious.

 

 

Or even left wondering about things.

It’s very hard not to be suspicious.

 

 

Or even left wondering about things.

[Elsie]

I only have an issue with you.

HMMMmmm…

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https://www.freerepublic.com/~missmarmelstein/

 

 NOTE: If you have something negative to say to me, please say it publicly and not on a private message.

[Elsie]

How DARE you post something in CONTEXT!!

—Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(I’m miffed and I’m going to tell Mary about it!)

[Elsie]

Post the whole thing, ebb....not just the part that favors you.

Call no man father stands out among:

Matthew 23 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

 

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men's shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them.
5 And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes.
6 And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues,
7 And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi.
8 But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren.
9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is your master, Christ.
11 He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.
14 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment.
15 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves.
16 Woe to you blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple, is a debtor.
17 Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gift that is upon it, is a debtor.
19 Ye blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 He therefore that sweareth by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things that are upon it:
21 And whosoever shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth in it:
22 And he that sweareth by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and have left the weightier things of the law; judgment, and mercy, and faith. These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone.
24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you make clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but within you are full of rapine and uncleanness.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, first make clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside may become clean.
27 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful, but within are full of dead men's bones, and of all filthiness.
28 So you also outwardly indeed appear to men just; but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; that build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just,
30 And say: If we had been in the days of our Fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are the sons of them that killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
36 Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?
38 Behold, your house shall be left to you, desolate.
39 For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

[Elsie]

Well, at least you are not outright accusing me of malice.

It's early yet...

[Elsie]

Some of the best ways to read up on how ordinary Catholics feel is to read the caucus threads and refrain from breaking them.

Or; one could read their homepage; where they post the stuff that is near and dear to their hearts.

[Elsie]

However, as with so many things Roman Catholic, the church that claims they never change....well, they changed the Council of Trent.

HMMMmmm…

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'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,

' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  

[Elsie]

Sounds hypocritical to me.

Call no man father.