Posted on 06/23/2018 7:48:28 AM PDT by Salvation
You are a deceiver.
Christ’s body was not drained of blood.
No where does it say that Jesus died of blood loss,
everyone knows you die on a cross by SUFFOCATION because you cannot raise your body up off the cross to breathe.
May the Lord rebuke you.
“The important issue is that you do not believe in the Word of God, that Jesus was resurrected into a body of flesh (and blood and bone) ”
Chapter and verse mentioning blood, please... or it is simply an opinion.
“because He was really in his GLORIFIED BODY at the Resurrection?”
Christ was not glorified until He ascended to the Father.
Jesus blood was poured out for us.
If the life is in the blood, the surest sign of life being gone was blood being gone.
It was absolute proof that the life was also gone.
Scripture does not tell us that Jesus died of suffocation, but that He gave up His life Himself. Matthew 27:50 and the other gospels say that He yeilded up His spirit. He chose to give up His own life.
Then His side was pierced and the blood and water poured out.
That high horse is sure way up there. Take care you don’t”t fall off and fracture your knowitall.
Are you denying that GOD can walk about in a body enlivened by Spirit rather than blood? Do you realize that JESUS told us He had not yet made/ received His glorified body even though He was on a walkabout before the Ascension?
Do you realize that your assumptions are no more valid than the opposites of your assumed? Please read the Revelation of John, and refer to Isaiah and Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel. Then read carefully what Paul wrote to the Corinthian and Thessolanika believers.
Have you never heard the phrase “disappeared into the crowd”?
That didn’t need to be the same kind of miracle as walking therough a wall. All He would have needed to do was to blind the eyes of the people in the crowd so they couldn’t see Him.
I am NOT negating and discrediting His work on the cross or His life or suffering. I am not saying that allHe went through didn’t matter. It is not any of the things that you are accusing me of.
Scripture tells us that the incorruptible body is different.
1 Corinthians 15:35-57 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mormon error goes way beyond that.
They teach that God the Father was once a man who later attained godhood, that Jesus was born of a sexual encounter between him and Mary, who is one of God’s many spirit wives, and that Jesus was a separate being, who is the half brother of Lucifer (Satan), who was born of another of their god’s spirit wives.
By stating this, they deny the deity of Christ and the virgin birth.
Salvation is by grace through faith that kicks in only after you have done everything possible to save yourself.
I read that verse in a different version and would guess it means bruises....
Jesus died because He commended His Spirit into The Father's hands:
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost" (Jn. 19:30 AV).
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Lk. 23:46 AV).
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross
on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken,
and that they might be taken away.
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true,
that ye might believe.
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced" (Jn. 19:31-37 AV).
=====
About Verse 34:
It is without a doubt that the purpose of the piercing was to thrust through the side laterally from the right, entering under the ribs to avoid entanglement with bone, thence up and into the heart to absolutely still and drain it, lest the victim be only passed out and in a coma, the unwanted result being later after dismounting to come out of the coma and revive. This was undertaken that the procurator could release the body without risking his own livelihood for an early release due to incomplete execution. Also doubtless is that the soldiers, to whom after long experience with hundreds of such crucifixions, were entirely practiced as to making sure the victim was completely dead, though he might only have passed out from dehydration and congestive heart failure from the stress and suffocation.
Robertson's Word Pictures:
Pierced his side (autou tēn pleuran enuxen). First aorist active indicative of nussō, old word to pierce, here only in N.T., and pleuran (side), another old word, occurs in N.T. only here and Jn.20:20, 25, 27. Blood and water (haima kai hudōr). Dr. W. Stroud (Physical Cause of the Death of Christ) argues that this fact proves that the spear pierced the left side of Jesus near the heart and that Jesus had died literally of a broken heart since blood was mixed with water.
Marvin Vincent's "Word Studies:
With a spear (λόγχῃ) -- Only here in the New Testament. Properly, the head of a spear. So Herodotus, of the Arabians: "They also had spears (αἰχμὰς) tipped with an antelope's horn sharpened like a spear-point (λόγχης)" (vii., 96). Used also, as here, for the spear itself.
Pierced (ἔνυξεν) -- Only here in the New Testament. The question has been raised whether the Evangelist means to describe a gash or a prick. Another verb is rendered pierced in Jn. 19:37, the quotation from Zec. 12:10, ἐξεκέντησαν, which occurs also at Rev. 1:7, with reference to Christ's crucifixion, and is used in classical Greek of putting out the eyes, or stabbing, and in the Septuagint of Saul's request to his armor-bearer: "Draw thy sword and thrust me through therewith" (1 Chr. 10:4). The verb used here, however, νύσσω, is also used to describe severe and deadly wounds, as in Homer:
As he sprang Into his car,It has been suggested that the body was merely pricked with the spear to ascertain if it were yet alive. There seems, on the whole, no reason for departing from the ordinary understanding of the narrative, that the soldier inflicted a deep thrust on the side of Jesus (compare Jn.20:25,27); nor is it quite apparent why, as Mr. Field urges, a distinction should be kept up between the two verbs in Jn. 19:34 and Jn. 19:37.
Idomeneus, expert To wield the ponderous javelin,
thrust (νύξ) its blade Through his right shoulder.
From the car he fell, And the dark night of death came over him."
“Iliad,” v. 45-47.
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ;=======
not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit
that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
I personally know what it is like to be so dehydrated (=loss of blood volume) as to be almost dead, and that without any additional copious loss from deep lacerations and from exacerbated spike puncture wounds as Jesus suffered, or internal blood loss to the pericardium through stress-related congestive heart failure,
I was very sick, and trying to crawl to the telephone I passed out, I don't know how long, but finally was barely just able to dial 911 and ask for help. When the ambulance came, I had become very nauseous from the dehydration, and was unable to move. The technician's electronic sphygnomanometer could detect no blood pressure whatever, so they immediately hooked me up to a one-liter saline solution bag, got me onto a gurney and into the ambulance. Halfway to the hospital, that first liter was emptied into me, so they connected another. Just before we got to the hospital they had to start a third liter, then got me into an emergency cubicle. The rate of uptake had by then slowed down, so that one lasted until about three hours later, when they replaced that with the fourth, when my blood pressure had become normal and steady, with my body no longer demanding much solution,
So I do have an appreciation of how low Jesus' blood volume must have been way down when He gave up the ghost and passed out, no longer moving. You can say that he died from "suffocation" but I know that's only part of a greater combination of failure of all systems.
Though the soldiers saw Him motionless, and in their opinion dead, they still absolutely made sure their lives were not endangered with a failed execution, so under orders, they finished the process.
But for sure, the loss of blood through the piercing to the heart and the spurt of blood and edema must have almost totally exhausted His blood volume.
Got any of your own experiences or special medical knowledge to confute that,? Eh? I don't think you know. What I know is that Jesus died when He "gave up the ghost"--His Spirit being separated from His Body and gone to Heaven, with His soul departed for Paradise as he had promised the converted malefactor, and His Body a biological mechanism without that force which gives it life.
You are a deceiver. . . . May the Lord rebuke you.
It will be a long time before the Lord, my Savior, rebukes me for what I've written, IMHO. I hope you get a little wiser than you are right now in your spiritual walk, my FRiend.
It's going to be a lot longer before you get the authority to rebuke (religiously curse) anybody for anything on this forum, buddy!
Thanks for your comment, MM. I’ll check it out.
That's cute, M. I too had that in mind a couple of days ago on the issue of who comes back from the dead pile. Glad I don't have to do it all. You done great on this one (again).
Considering the statistics on Escherichia coli these days, I’ll take mine medium-well, Els. You’ve gotten me hungry—it’s noon-thirty right now. Time to go and scorch.
Because that isn't how some religious people think about God. They see Him as the stern judge and their need to appeal to those who they think have found favor with Him. This is a line of thought that goes back centuries and demonstrates the deception that has crept into Christian doctrine. Martin Luther voiced some of the reasons why prayers to Mary and "saints" was thought effective over any direct appeal to our loving and merciful heavenly Father:
Luther’s frequent mentioning of Saint Bernard speaks of his fondness and familiarity with his writings. Later recollecting Bernard’s influence on his own Mariolatry, Luther looked back on the years before his break with Rome and said,
He also recollected, “Christ in His mercy was hidden from my eyes. I wanted to become justified before God through the merits of the saints. This gave rise to the petition for the intercession of the saints. On a portrait St. Bernard, too, is portrayed adoring the Virgin Mary as she directs her Son, Christ, to the breasts that suckled Oh, how many kisses we bestowed on Mary”![14] Luther concluded though, that even in St Bernard’s incessant praise of Mary as she directs the sinner toward Christ, Bernard left out Christ completely: “Bernard filled a whole sermon with praise of the Virgin Mary and in so doing forgot to mention what happened [the incarnation of Christ]; so highly did he… esteem Mary.” [15] Thus, young Luther partook in Mariolatry, but the mature Luther looking back saw only the excesses of medieval devotion and teaching on Mary. He saw that she had been adorned with attributes that only belonged to Christ. https://web.archive.org/web/20140803220104/http://tquid.sharpens.org/luther_mary1.htm
Scripture tells us "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (I Cor. 15:50). Our glorified bodies, which are like unto Christ's glorified body, will be given to us or eternity at our resurrection. Will it have blood? If it does, it will not be any kind of human blood.
First, the high priest had to make an atonement for himself successfully, in the Holy of Holies, by using the blood of the bullock:
"And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incenseThat is on behalf of him and his own family I think, or maybe for all the Aaronic priests.
may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward;
and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times"
(Lev. 16:15,16 AV)
Then he goes back outside, into the killing yard, and kills one of the goats; then brings its blood into the inner rooms of the temple, behind the veil, and sprinkles the goat's blood on and before the mercy seat, just as he did before, but this was for all the people of Israel.
Then he goes out of the tabernacle and does some more finger-sprinkling.
So the blood of the bullock and the goat was not poured, it was finger-sprinkled, which really did not use much in the Holy of Holies. The rest of it was used up outside on the external big altar in front of the tabernacle.
You can read more at your convenience. It is not too complicated, but most churches don't get into studying it much, if at all, these days. I never heard my Dad preach about it or refer to it while I was growing up, so I never knew of the significance of Yom Kippur until after I was saved and hung around with Plymouth-type brethren.
But thanks for asking.
Interesting.
I recall a certain incident when Jesus was 12 years old where Mary chided HIM for His actions in staying behind in Jerusalem.
What you miss, my FRiend, is that the Cross was not the scene where forgiveness took place. That was just the killing zone, and it was on earth. It was the place where Jesus' Blood was separated from His Body and gathered for the use at the place of atonement.
The forgiveness took place in Heaven, when His Blood was placed on the True Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies there, and presented to the Mighty God to compensate for mankind's sins from Adam on, thus satisfying The Mighty God's Righteous Demands, and thereby placating His Just Wrath, with the consequence that peace was made by mankind's representative, Jesus Who was/is The Eternal High Priest. Having then completed His period of voluntary service to The Father, He was able to again take up the glory He had lain down, and be seated in His role of acting as Deity with God The Father, and ask for the Comforter to be sent to earth to govern His saints.
Again, the forgiveness took place in Heaven, not at the Cross, but rather after His ascension on Resurrection Day, in Heaven. But the Cross-death was absolutely necessary for the killing and bleeding that produced the precious Blood of Atonement in Heaven.
Yes! Thank you for bringing up this reminder. While this body of mine is not yet completely worn out, it has seen its days. I hope the wait for the new model will not be too long. (smile)
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