U.S. Archbishop: Using Contraception is Always ‘Evil’

LifeSite News ^ | 6/5/18 | Lisa Bourne

[Mrs. Don-o]

Well, Holy Moly, Mark 17, nobody in this fambly never had any need for that!

(((Blush))))

[Mrs. Don-o]

I mean ever had any need.

Never did, neither.

(((Double blush))).

[CondoleezzaProtege]

Beautiful. To God be the glory. Openness to beauty. Openness to LIFE.

[Mark17]

I mean ever had any need.

Well, I don’t need cholesterol medication either, but at least I know what it is. 😁🤣😇😊

[boatbums]

This is something Scripture never said about contraceptive paraphernalia.

And yet there WERE different types of such "paraphernalia" even back then (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control). Since we know that the Scriptures teaches all things related to our salvation and godly living, wouldn't it be sufficient to cover that topic with God's warnings against adultery, sexual immorality and murder?

[metmom]

Except that NFP isn’t about not having sex for the purpose of prayer.

It’s about trying to avoid procreation by other means than barrier methods for the purpose of being able to have sex without being open to procreation, which is what Catholicism condemns.

Catholicism, in many ways, and some very subtle, condemns sex, especially sex for the pleasure of it, as if it’s something degrading and beneath the dignity of humans, especially the “spiritual” and “holy” ones.

[Mark17]

Catholicism, in many ways, and some very subtle, condemns sex, especially sex for the pleasure of it, as if it’s something degrading and beneath the dignity of humans, especially the “spiritual” and “holy” ones.

When I was a catholic, I got the same impression. They were very subtle about it. No one was foolish enough to actually come right out and say it. Most of us rebellious Americans, would tell them to take a hike. They did it by implying that being a nun or priest, was much better. I doubt most Catholics feel that way, but some surely do. 😁

[Mark17]

Neither is the "new testmament."

LOL. You keep telling yourself that bro. In eternity, we will see if the New Testament is true or not, but by then it will be too late for you. You can accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah now, or face him later, as a judge. That’s on you bro, but the Queen of the South, and the men of Ninevah will be there too. You may feel free, to do with that information, whatever you like. It is your problem.

The idea that it refers to more conceptions after than before the sin is metmom's own private interpretation.

Gee whiz dude. You accuse Metmom of making a personal interpretation, which I agree with her on. Then, what do you do? You turn right around, and make your own personal interpretation.
I am pretty sure that I disagree with about 98% of your beliefs. I am totally comfortable with that. Try to have a nice eternity, wherever you spend it. 😁😇🤣🔥

[Mrs. Don-o]

There are certainly a few secular couples who do NFP because they understand the health issues with contraceptives and they don't want to mess with hormones. However, a solid majority of NFP users are Christians, many of them Catholics, and do pray when abstaining (as well as when not abstaining!)

I've never surveyed NFP'ers about their prayer lives --- maybe somebody should --- though it's such a personal and private part of their faith. It's an issue other people shouldn't be poking their noses into, in my opinion.

But it's presumptuous, as well as a tad insulting, to assume that they aren't doing intense praying when they're abstaining from sex.

My best friend, decades ago when I lived in the Bay Area CA, was a RN who was a "convert" from IUD to NFP. I knew T. and D. pretty well. She confided in me that she, and especially D., both found it difficult to abstain during her fertile time, and confided (with a half-laugh) that they fasted and prayed intensely to quell rather turbulent emotions. They also prayed hard so that their financial and health issues would improve so that they could have more kids.

Their pastor, ironically, gave them no encouragement at all. He kept saying to follow their consciences (well yeah, duh) and if it was so hard they should use contraceptives. T. told this scoundrel in confession that this WAS their shared conscientious choice, and he said "Well, then, if you've got difficulties, you've got yourselves to blame." Excuse me, but what a putz.

They ended up with five, BTW, which is highly unusual in Berkeley, and each one was such a heart-felt gift. They taught me so much about the sanctity of sex. I had never met people so much in love.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Oh yes, in Biblical days there was paraphernalia available for contraception as well as abortion. Neither intentional abortion nor intentional contraception (with the exception of Genesis 38) is described nor condemned in in the Scriptures. What do you want to conclude from that?

I certainly don't think you can conclude that these aspects of pharmakeia were OK because they were not specifically singled out and condemned. I must add that what's comprised by the inclusive term pharmakeia would be relevant to this discussion.

What we do know, is that nether is ever shown to be blessed by God: on the contrary, life and fertility are praised; opening and closing the womb are prerogatives of the Almighty as Lord and Giver of Life.

Devoted to Scripture as you are, you must have noticed the exceptionless themes in the Bible of both the blessedness of life and the blessedness of the marital relation as a sacred fertile union under the providence of God.

The Biblical line of reasoning against abortion is identical to one one against contraception.

[Mrs. Don-o]

AAck! More of my ignorance exposed! Will it never end...? :o)

[Mark17]

AAck! More of my ignorance exposed! Will it never end...? :o)

I am sure I have a 10 foot pole around here, for not touching things with. 😁😇🤣😊👍

[metmom]

Well, Holy Moly, Mark 17, nobody in this fambly never had any need for that!

Well, you know, it's not something men announce to the whole world. There's really no way you WOULD know about anyone besides Mr. Don-O.

[metmom]

I've never surveyed NFP'ers about their prayer lives --- maybe somebody should --- though it's such a personal and private part of their faith. It's an issue other people shouldn't be poking their noses into, in my opinion.

Their prayer lives are not the reason they are doing the NFP.

You seem to be missing the point in a big way.

Scripture tells us the only reason for abstinence in marriage is for a short time for the purpose of prayer.

It does NOT endorse it as a family planning method or for any other reason.

[Elsie]

U.S. Archbishop: Using Contraception is Always ‘Evil’

The guys on 'top' seem to always want to dictate rulings about sex...

 

What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?

 

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"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982

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"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

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"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65

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"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196

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"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.

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"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965

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"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

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"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

https://exploringmormonism.com/boyd-k-packer-and-a-whole-new-sin/

 

[Zionist Conspirator]

LOL. You keep telling yourself that bro. In eternity, we will see if the New Testament is true or not, but by then it will be too late for you. You can accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah now, or face him later, as a judge. That’s on you bro, but the Queen of the South, and the men of Ninevah will be there too. You may feel free, to do with that information, whatever you like. It is your problem.

Once again . . . you are endlessly repeating chrstian claims without even attempting to prove them. You wouldn't accept some other religion's "holy book" without good reason to do so, yet somehow you expect everyone to simply "know" chrstianity is true on some deep instinctual level without any proof whatsoever.

As for metmom's interpretation, I have never in my life before heard of such a bizarre interpretation as "now that you've sinned you want be able to have endless sex without consequences; now it will cause you to have lots of kids." That sounds downright perverse. Especially since the people who have studied it for 3300 unbroken years since Moses himself have an alternative explanation.

I realize Protestantism is restorationist, but not all religions need "restoring." One of them has been right from the beginning.

[Elsie]

Funny, when God pronounced the curse on Adam and Eve, He said that Eve’s conception would greatly increase. IOW, before the fall, most of sex would NOT have been for the purpose of having children.

HMMMmmm…

Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be contrary to your husband,
but he shall rule over you.”

[metmom]

As for metmom's interpretation, I have never in my life before heard of such a bizarre interpretation as "now that you've sinned you want be able to have endless sex without consequences; now it will cause you to have lots of kids."

You put that in quotes as if I said that. I didn't.

That sounds downright perverse.

The only thing that's perverse is your thinking that would cause you to conclude that I think that way.

The fact that you thought that of me shows more about what's in YOUR heart than mine. It's called *projection.*

Your criticism about proving things is ludicrous in light of the fact that you never post anything but your opinion and don't have any links to anything authoritative to back yourself up.

And longevity does not make right. Catholics use that same argument to justify their claims as well. And since you both make different claims and appeal to longevity to validate them, they both can't be right, so who is?

[Elsie]

... most of sex would NOT have been for the purpose of having children.

And; it is still true today!

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1 Corinthians 7:5-9 NIV
 
5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 

[metmom]

Here, go to the Hebrew.

http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/3-16.htm