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To: ravenwolf; Elsie; Fantasywriter; imardmd1
*petra* and Petros* are NOT the same thing.

Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.

Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).

“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.

There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.

Also, here, Paul identifies who petra is, and that is Christ. This link takes you to the Greek.

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-4.htm

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and the Rock (petra) was Christ.

http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm

1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

and

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.

http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4073.htm

It's there, in the Greek.

368 posted on 06/08/2018 4:07:06 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: metmom
It's there, in the Greek.

Unfortunately, your exegesis of the Greek, along with most Protestant commentators, is akin to a non-English speaker asserting “butterfly” is related to dairy products.

I won’t spend any effort trying to convince you; I’m just being a witness.

For a definitive treatment of the subject, see Protestant Greek scholar D.A. Carson’s commentary.

369 posted on 06/08/2018 4:25:18 PM PDT by papertyger (did IQs just drop sharply while i was away....)
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To: metmom; ravenwolf

Exactly. The Scripures do not promise that our guesses or assumptions re what word was spoken are inspired. The promise is that the Scriptures we HAVE are inspured.


370 posted on 06/08/2018 4:40:44 PM PDT by Fantasywriter (Any attempt to do forensic work using Internet artifacts is fraught with pitfalls. JoeProbono)
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To: metmom
Thanks for the list, and for reiforcing what has already been emphasized upthread. This is not the first time in FR that the topic has been broached and fought over. For my purposes, I had made up a list that breaks down the words :ROCK" and "STONE" as found in the KJV translations of the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek works, as well as the verses in which they occur. So here, forthwith, is that list. Tghere is nothing to be argued in it, but it can be used for reference to define the words for debates here on FR.

=========== begin defined words list =========

ROCK

-----------

Hebrew words:

kêph: H3710
kafe
From H3721; a hollow rock: - rock.
Jn. 1:42
Job 30:6, Jer. 4:29

selah: H5553
Crag, cliff, lofty stronghold
Num. 20:8 (2x), 10 (2x), 21; 24:21
Deut 32:13
Jdg. 1:36, 6:20, 15:8, 20:47, 21:13
1 Sam. 14:4 (2x), 23:25
2 Sam. 22:2*
2 Chron. 25:2 (2x)(escarpment cliff)
Neh. 9:15
Job 39:1, 39:28 (2x)
Ps. 18:2, 31:3, 55:3, 42:9, 71:3, 78:16
Song 2:14
Is. 22:16, 32:2, 42:11
Jer. 5:3, 13:4, 23:29* (small rock?), 48:28, 49:16
Ez. 24:7,8; 26:4, 26:14
Amos 6:12
Oba. 1:3

sela': H5554
(a place in Edom; same as "Petra")

tsoor: H6697 (Aramaic)
Same meaning as Hebrew "selah"
Ex. 17:6 (2x); 33:21,22
Deut. 8:15, 32:4, 13, 15, 18, 30, 31 (2x), 37
Jdg. 6:21, 7:25, 13:19,
1 Sam. 2:2*
2 Sam. 21:10, 22:3*, 22:32*, 22:47*, 2 Sam. 23:3* (see ctxt)
2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
1 Chron. 11:15
Job 14:18, 18:4. 19:24*, 24:8. 29:6
Ps. 18:31,46; 27:5; 28:1; 31:2; 61:2; 62:2,6,7; 78:20,35; 81:16; 89:26; 92:15; 94:22; 95:1; 105:41; 114:8
Is. 2:10, 8:14, 10:26, 17:10, 48:21 (2x), 51:1
Is. 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Jer. 18:14* (= small rock), 21:13* (ditto?),

challâmı̂ysh, khal-law-meesh': H2496
(flint, flinty)
Deut. 8:15, 32:13 Job 28:9
Ps. 114:8
Prov. 30:19

mâ‛ôz mâ‛ûz:
maw-oze', maw-ooz'
(rock, fort, stronghold)
Jdg. 6:26

'eben: H68
(stone as a material, sling-stone, large or small, of tablets, precious stones)
Is. 8:14

Greek:

petra: G4073
Mt. 7:24, 25; 16:18; 27:60
Mk. 15:46
Lk. 6:48 (2x); 8:6, 13*;
Rom. 9:33
1 Cor. 10:4
1 Pet. 2:8


petros:G4074
Mt. 16:18; Jn. 1:42
(162 times referring to Peter, and nothing or no one else)

lithos:G3037
Mt. 27:60
Mt. 15:46
Rom. 9:33
1 Pet. 2:8
---------------------

106 verses found, 119 matches
==============

STONE

-----------

Hebrew/Aramaic:

kêph: H3710
kafe
From H3721; a hollow rock: - rock.

'eben: H68, H69=Aramaic, same sound
eh'-ben
Gen. 2:12, 11:3 (brick=stone), 28:18, 22 (pillow=pillar), 29:2,3,8; 29:10; 31:45; 35:14 (Beth-El); 49:24 (as a material);
Ex. 15:5,16; 17:12; 20:25; 21:18; 24:12; 28:10,11; 31:18; 34:1,4 (2x)
Lev. 20:27; 24:23; 26:1
Num. 14:10, 15:35, 35:17,23
Deut. 4:13,28; 5:22; 9:9,10,11; 10:1,3; 13:10; 17:5; 21:21; 22:24; 28:36; 29:17
Josh. 4:5, 15:6, 18:7, 24:26,27 (a great stone as a monument)
Jdg. 9:5,18;
1 Sam. 6:14,18; 7:12; 14:33; 17:49,50 (sling-stone); 25:37
2 Sam. 20:8
1 Ki. 1:9; 6:7,18; 8:9
2 Ki. 3:25 (2x); 12:12; 19:18; 22:6
1 Chron. 22:14,15
2 Chron. 22:14, 34:11
Neh. 4:3, 9:11
Job. 28:2, 38:6,30
Ps. 98:12, 118:22
Prov. 17:8; 24:31; 26:8,27:3
Is. 8:14*; 28:16 (2x); 39:17
Jer. 2:27; 51:26 (2x),63
Lam. 3:53
Ezek. 1:26; 10:1,9; 16:40; 20:32; 23:47; 28:13; 40:42
Dan. 2:34,35,45; 5:4,23; 6:17
Hab. 2:11,19
Hag. 2:15 (2x)
Zech. 3:9 (2x); 12:3

sâqal: H5619 (verb)
saw-kal'
Ex. 8:26, 17:4,
Deut. 13:10; 17:5; 22:24
1 Ki. 21:10,13

tsôr: H6864
tsore
From H6696; a stone (as if pressed hard or to a point); (by implication of use) a knife: - flint, sharp stone.
Ex. 4:25, 7:19,

tserôr: H6872
(pebble)
2 Sam. 17:13* (small stone)

shâmı̂yr: H8068
(adamanine, flint, diamond)
Zech. 7:12;

sappı̂yr: H5601
(sapphire-stone, lapis lazuli)
Ex. 24:10

râgam: H7275 (verb)
(to kill by stoning)
Lev. 20:2; 20:27; 24:14,16; 24:23
Num. 14:10, 15:35
Deut. 21:21,
Ezek. 16:40, 23:47

gâzı̂yth: H1496
hewed (stone)
1 Ki. 6:36
Lam. 3:9
Amos 5:11

Greek

akrogōniaios: G0204
(Corner foundation stone)
1 Pet. 2:6

lithos: G3037
lee'-thos
Mt. 4:3,6; 7:9; 21:42,44; 24:2 (2x); 27:60,66; 28:2
Mk. 12:10; 13:2 (2x); 15:46; 16:3,4
Lk. 4:3,11; 11:1; 19:44; 20:17,18; 21:6; 24:2
Jn. 8:7; 10:32; 11:38,39,41
Acts 4:11; 17:29 (as material)
1 Pet. 2:4,7,8*
Rev. 4:3; 18:21; 21:11

lithinos: G3035 (adjective)
(of stone)
Jn. 2:6
1 Cor. 3:3
Rev. 9:20

lithazō (verb)
to stone
Jn. 10:32,33; 11:8

katalithazō: G2642 (verb) Lk. 20:6

lithoboleō: G3036
(cast stones at)
Acts 14:5

laxeutos: G2991
lax-yoo-tos'
(hewn-stone; from λᾶς las (a stone) )
Lk. 23:53

mulos: G3456
(specifically a stone mill)
Rev. 18:21

psēphos: G5586
(a small worn smooth stone, a pebble)
Rev. 2:17

Kēphas: G2786
kay-fas'
Of Chaldee (=Aramaic) origin (compare [H3710]); the Rock; Cephas (that is, Kepha), surname of Peter: - Cephas.
Jn. 1:42

=========== end of defined words list =========

Other tha Jesus' one use as recorded in the NT, only Paul speaks of Kefas (transliterated to Cephas in KJV):
1 Cor. 1:12, 3:22, 9:5, 15:5

Paul only spoke of Petros = Peter in Galatians, and that not very positively.

Simon bar Jona's sobriquet (nickname) "Peter" was found 162 times in the NT, and the word was not used in any other way for any other purpose than a nickname. The word is NOT used to translate a rock or a stone, although th word in a sentence does have that meaning. It is a strech to think that Jesus was using the word to describe Simon bar Jona's character, That is a supposition not warranted by the text doctrine.

373 posted on 06/09/2018 3:49:04 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: metmom; Elsie; Fantasywriter; imardmd1

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.


Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe you need to get out of the dictionary and just read what the Bible says because what you say that it says is not the truth.

If you believed any thing Jesus said you would not have any need to try to come up with every definition in the book.

As i have said before i am not saying that Peter was the rock that Jesus was going to build his Church on, i am just saying that Jesus did call peter a rock.

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

Greek translates it to stone, exactly the same meaning so please quit calling Jesus a liar.


381 posted on 06/09/2018 10:48:56 AM PDT by ravenwolf (Left lane drivers and tailgaters have the smallest brains in the world.)
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