| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 05/26/2018 9:25:39 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish, personal, and attacks |
Posted on 05/26/2018 7:00:33 AM PDT by tiredofallofit
Well I finally got around to it – I am reading through some of the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin. I say “some” because the complete work spans more than 1500 pages and deals with some of the most weighty and complex theological issues known to mankind. I have chosen for now to plod my way through the most controversial aspects of Calvin’s writings; the topics of predestination and election.
Most of my friends who call themselves Calvinists are eager to disassociate themselves from the doctrine of “double predestination”. They state that God has predestined some to eternal life, but they assure me that He would never send people to hell. People get there on their own, I am told. And what did Calvin teach? I ask. Usually, I receive some sort of vague answer – like how Calvin’s writings are difficult to understand or how misunderstood he is by other denominations. Ok, I get that. He was an intellectual giant – but what did he say about double predestination and if you don’t know exactly, then why do you call yourself a Calvinist?
So I decided to have a look for myself. Surprisingly, The Institutes of the Christian Religion are not so difficult to read or comprehend, despite the complexity of the topics discussed.
Calvin begins his discourse on the doctrine of predestination and election in Chapter 21 of Book 3 of his Institutes. If one just reads the title of this chapter and nothing else, he or she quickly ascertains Calvin’s view on double predestination – for the chapter is titled “OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.” That’s pretty clear, is it not?
But in case you still doubt his position, allow me to share with you this excerpt from Section 5 in Chapter 21:
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
He goes on to address the “arrogant” and “blasphemous” objections which are leveled at his view of predestination. And there are plenty of such objections. In typical Calvin style, he does not back down nor does he attempt to soften his message. God ordains some people to heaven and some people to hell, end of story.
“If that is what Calvin truly taught,” a Calvinist friend told me recently, “then I shouldn’t call myself a Calvinist. That’s not what I believe.”
There is no doubt that Calvin fully subscribed to the doctrine of double predestination. He invented it! Maybe it’s time for some Calvinists to revisit these Institutes of his and reevaluate their desire to affix this label on themselves.
Reference:
Calvin, John. Institutes of Christian religion. Trans. Henry Beveridge, Esq. 1599. Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Nov. 1999. 20 Sept. 2001
>>Showing off your Christianity?
He called me a liar. Showing off my humanity.
Presumptuous to play God and know who is going to Hell.
I believe God evaluates one’s faith along with their works at the time of death.
Love God and Keep His Commandments.
>>Luke 6:45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
That’s right Church Lady...it’s SATAN. Now, isn’t that special.
You have masterfully reinforced my stereotype of Calvinists.
>>You have masterfully reinforced my stereotype of Calvinists.
Exactly. Everything reasonable that I said in more than a dozen posts was ignored, insulted, or called a lie. Your stereotype would not allow a discussion to even happen. But when I got mad, then your bigotry and ignorance would finally allow you to finally hear. Glad I could be of service. You can return to your humanist beliefs now.
Failure to understand election and predestination is simply to fail to understand God's mercy and grace. As Calvin states:
As far as "double predestination" goes, Calvin gives us this warning about such a doctrine in the same chapter:
Predestination and election are important doctrines but Calvin cautions us not to go too deep into this rabbit hole. Why does God love Jacob but hate Esau? How can an impartial God love one but hate another? We can't say but we know that it is true because it is revealed to us in scripture. Calvin only reported the mysteries that are in scripture. Whether one wants to deny those mysteries is entirely up to them.
Isn’t it ironic how Calvin starts the discussion by warning people not to delve into the doctrine of Election too deeply yet he does exactly this in the subsequent pages? When I read this section, I hear him saying that mere mortals should not investigate this issue too deeply yet he (Calvin) is qualified to do just that. In other words, you shouldn’t think about this too much - but allow me to tell you all about it.
Please answer me this question regarding this famous Pauline quote about Jacob and Esau which you just alluded to - who was Paul quoting? And when was this “statement” about Jacob and Esau made?
Red flag time.
Anyone who claims to understand how God does something, doesn't.
Have you read The Bible? I presume on the promises of God. And a Catholic priest has a lot of hutzpah telling someone anything about playing God. I can go directly to my Father in Heaven for forgiveness, and don’t require a Catholic Priest for go between ... or Mary the Mother of Jesus ... or Creflo Dollar, etc.
Have you read John 20:23 where Christ gave his disciples the authority to forgive sins? Was this authority just granted to them and lost when they died or is it possible that it was passed down to those who took their place?
Can you offer me an example of someone who Jesus embued that authority to after the death of John of Patmos fame?
So what you’re saying is this — Christ gave his disciples authority to forgive sins and this authority died with them. So to follow your logic - all of the authority which Christ gave the disciples (healing, casting out of demons, preaching in his name) died with them. So where His church then? Was it just a one generation phenomenon?
“But when I got mad, then your bigotry and ignorance would finally allow you to finally hear. Glad I could be of service. You can return to your humanist beliefs now.”
Talk about bigotry and ignorance!
What “humanist” belief? That “These Arminian pastors don’t believe anything but to keep em scared, keep em giving, keep em working.”?
No Arminian believes man is saved by good works. NONE! God has made a promise to us:
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws upon their heart,
And on their mind I will write them,”
He then says,
“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.”
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.” - Hebrews 10
To repeat for emphasis: “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” Not any doubt about WHO has done it, or its completeness. NO trace of earning salvation by good works. No hint of it!
But that has NOTHING to do with Calvinism! Nothing! Every non-Calvinist believer I’ve met - which would be about 99% of the believers I’ve met - agrees: Jesus did it all.
Anyone who claims Arminians believe we work our way to heaven is either so ignorant as to have no right to say anything, or a liar. Even the briefest review of non-Calvinist Christianity reveals the truth:
“The righteousness of God is through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
God presented him as an atoning sacrifice in his blood, received through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.
God presented him to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so that he would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith. For we conclude that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.” - Romans 3
“God presented him as an atoning sacrifice in his blood, received through faith...and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.”
Here is where Calvin and Arminius disagreed. Calvin says God saves us irresistibly, then gives us life. Only then can we have faith.
Arminius taught God gives us grace by revealing Himself to us, and IF we believe what He has revealed, then by definition we have faith - and are declared righteous. We “receive” the atonement “through faith”. “Faith” simply means you believe someone: “confidence or trust in a person or thing” ( http://www.dictionary.com/browse/faith?s=t )
“But to all who did receive him, he gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in his name...”
We receive. We do not earn. It is a LIE when Calvinists claim we say otherwise. Because it is excruciatingly obvious that we teach salvation is an act of God. It just is not an irresistible act of God, forced on unwilling people.
Nothing is arbitrary when God chooses.
Thast’s a pretty poor excuse for the kind of language and attitude you gave people.
Sorry, you just have. I was a Calvinist before I knew what it meant, because I could not reckon how an all-knowing God could not know who would choose Him. And the elect and predestined passages did not jibe with the Arminian position. When I read the Westminster Shorter Catechism, it made sense.
The way I see it, God has predestined all things. But we are not God, and act out of our limited knowledge. And these actions are fully our responsibility, but are according to God’s plans. What happened to Jacob or Judas is no different than what happens to us.
I’ve seen it happen many times. I’m really surprised at your broadbrush stereotype of Calvinist. I thought you to be better than that.
>>Thast’s a pretty poor excuse for the kind of language and attitude you gave people.
It’s not an excuse. It’s just a reason.
You are deluded in so many more ways than you can even comprehend.
You provided no service. You just could not handle being exposed and blew a gasket and now are blame shifting to try to justify your sin.
I’m not accepting the blame for that one. You own it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.