Posted on 08/02/2017 2:07:44 PM PDT by detective
Grace is not earned, or merited, or any otherwise apprehended buy actions on our part of any kind.
We are the recipients of it as sinners.
The person without sin can never be the recipient of God’s grace, therefore is Mary were truly sinless, she would by default be excluded from it.
The fact that the angel told her she was graced meant that God was doing something for her or to her what she did NOT merit or deserve, because she was a sinner.
The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint. The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it. Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!” And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand. No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”
That is true but the RC argument is that Mary was given this singular grace BEFORE she was even born so that she could forever be preserved from sin in order to give birth to the incarnate Son of God. Jesus' future sacrifice was made applicable towards her soul. Mary was predestined to be protected from original sin, she did not have a sin nature and was, in fact, sinless. Of course this blows the idea of free will - though few RCs will admit it.
ACs must have truly dizzying intellects to be able to fabricate this stuff but I doubt they would ever admit it.
...he's gone already.
Passed on about half an hour or so before I got back to the hospital.
I'm not anti-Catholic and what part of my comment do you consider "fabricated". Are you capable of discussing your disagreements or do you prefer insulting instead?
Ok sister-friend, I have to give it back to you in the KJV with an illustration!
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jLuvyPL_hg
Habakkuk 2:18-20
18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it;
the molten image, and a teacher of lies,
that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?
19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!
Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver,
and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
20 But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.
Don’t you think Keating deserves honor for your copy and paste?
I am capable of discussing my disagreements but that would take two or more reasonable individuals. I intended no insult I am merely pointing out ACs ability to perform mental gymnastics and weave pretzel logic.
It’s a complement.
And predestination.
You're still insulting whether you "intended" to or not. Again, what did you disagree with on my statement concerning the RC dogma of Mary's sinlessness? That the dogma itself is "mental gymnastics" and "pretzel logic", I will not disagree with you.
I’m sorry to hear that.
Prayers up for you and your family.
The pretzel logic and mental gymnastics are coming from those who claim that someone who is sinless had a Savior to keep them from the sin they never committed.
And that pre-forgiven means that it keeps the person from sinning in the first place.
If there’s no sin, there’s no forgiveness and no grace.
Forgiveness and grace only kick in in the presence of sin.
Admitting Mary had sinned and was not sinless makes a whole lot of Scripture make sense, like how she could, by her own admission have a Savior, and how she could be graced by God.
BTW, since God was able to (allegedly) keep her from sin, then why doesn’t He do that for everyone who is a believer and save the world a lot of grief? It can’t be that hard, or too hard for Him, since He’s God.
Let me take a stab at that. 1st Corinthians 1:18. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1st Corinthians 2:14. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Unregenerate man CANNOT understand spiritual issues, because unregenerate man is unspiritual. You and I both know, since we are ex Catholics, that we did not understand spiritual issues, till God revealed them to us.
One of the things I recalled from my Catholic days, was the incredible spiritual blindness I had. After I left the OTC, and started being my own pope, I began to understand, but not until God took away the blindness I had before.
The fact that unregenerate man, keeps trotting out the same old tired, worn out doctrines, should not surprise any of us. 😀😆😄
I get the impression many American, English speaking Roman Catholics do not "worship" Mary, despite there being 'cult of Mary' within Catholicism who do focus much upon capital "H" -Her-.
The title of this thread is telling, though...
I don't think so.
Would the Lord send her to lead His Heavenly host into battle today, tomorrow -- or some time in the past, between now, and since when Mary left this mortal coil which we who are yet alive in earthly flesh and blood are yet still wound?
She is safely hid, in Christ, I'm rather sure. I'd like to think so. Why wouldn't she be? She was 'elected' (selected by God), was she not? Mary would not be abandoned, and neither shall many others of us.
That still does not mean that any should bother Mary with prayers directed at herself -- although she and others may hear some prayers --addressed to the Lord God Almighty.
Would not the Lord Himself hear any word uttered towards her ---or towards most anyone, anywhere?
He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.
We see as through a glass darkly, but then, when the perfect is come, face to face. (paraphrased by memory from the New Berkely Edition -- which in 1 Corinthians 13 admittedly did move phrases around from one verse, to skipping over several to combine with a verse several numbered verses away from where a phrase lifted -- but I like that chapter of it -- wish I could find it online)
Thank you, there's not much left for the more immediate kind.
An 80 year old mother, and myself. Father, sister, brother gone.
She's taking this ok. She'll be ok. Her own parents lived into their nineties.
Sorry to hear about your brother.
Spend as much time with him as you can.
He is being looked over by our Great God!
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