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To: Chicory; aMorePerfectUnion
If there is no private interpretation, then there must be public interpretation, no? And how better to do that than by the learned having discussions in public and coming to a conclusion, which conclusion is protected by the Holy Spirit? Is that not how the early Church worked? Is that not what was described in Acts?

Where did you get the idea about "there is no private interpretation"? Perhaps when Peter was talking about the origin and authority of Scripture? Here's what he said, see if you can guess what was meant by "no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet's own interpretation":

    We also have the message of the prophets, which has been confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to this message, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (II Peter 1:19-21)

He wasn't talking about people reading the word and understanding its meaning. Rather, he said what the prophets spoke didn't come from their own words or their own interpretation of what the Holy Spirit revealed to them but they spoke as the Holy Spirit moved/carried them along. We have the more sure word of prophecy. The Scriptures we have IS the very word of God, not the musings of mere men. So, naturally the Holy Spirit has gifted to the body of Christ those who are empowered by Him to teach, to lead, to disciple others and to evangelize. But NONE of these people have authority OVER God's word. It says what it says. It's not written in some foreign code but the Holy Spirit enables believers to know the truth Scripture is putting forth. He will teach us ALL things, Jesus said. The early church defended the rule of faith BY the Scriptures and the teachings handed down to them by the Apostles (they were the same).

I am clear on the fact that Luther’s original actions were in accord with this long-standing way of doing things. Where Luther went wrong was to refuse to give up his ideas when presented with Church teachings, which contradicted his own, and then refuse to discuss his ideas further with academics of the Church.

Luther's actions were based on his fidelity to the Scriptures and the abuses he saw first hand within the Roman Catholic hierarchy up to and including the Pope. He wasn't wrong especially at the early stage when he questioned the use of indulgences and the rampant simony around it. As a side, the Pope DID stop the buying and selling of indulgences - so he acknowledged the church was wrong. Luther defended his beliefs by appealing to Scripture as well as the Early Church fathers against the novel doctrines that had been brought in over the centuries that were not taught by the Apostles and could not be defended by the rule of faith of Scripture OR tradition. Tradition became whatever Rome said it was.

You apparently don't know that Luther went back and forth with the "academics" of the Catholic church and there are hundreds of letters and papers attesting to that which are even available online and translated into English.

Thus, Lutheranism itself was based on private interpretation. In order to promote his idea of Sola Fide, he changed the Bible when he translated it.

Your initial premise was wrong so your conclusion fares no better. Luther's GERMAN translation, specifically the passage in Romans 3:28 that you presume he wrongly changed, has also been shown to be a bogus claim (this thread even gives a link that speaks to this). That use of the term "faith alone" was used by earlier translations including Catholic ones and was defended by numerous Catholic "academics". Here's the link if you don't want to go through this thread to find it: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html.

And the further changes in Protestant theological thought were also based on private interpretation.

Again, false premise, false conclusion. Besides, Catholicism has changed and added theological thought based on nothing more than "we say it's true, so it's true", they don't even pretend to go to Scripture to defend it.

Hopefully, this helps you understand a little more why non-Cath Freepers participate on these threads.

696 posted on 07/20/2017 11:03:32 PM PDT by boatbums (The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation, but washes you upon the Rock of Ages.)
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To: boatbums; Chicory; aMorePerfectUnion; kosciusko51
Pop quiz time. Two questions.

1) Who agrees with the following partial quote/extract;

"...Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14..."
2) What world-renowned theologian said it?

Can any Roman Catholic answer that one without looking at other thread comments, and/or using a search engine to find the source?

On note related to Luther's theological application of "faith alone", it must be understood that "sola fide" is not, and never was "alone".

Grace, Christ, Scripture, and for the Glory of God, and "faith" alone -- those five all together, thus never "alone".

Criticisms of any of those five must take into account how any of those are interrelated to all the rest, or esles it just so much misunderstanding, and repetitive murdering of strawman.



Prior to hitting "post" I see now that the below information from;

..had already been posted on this thread at comment #310, but I'll repeat it here for purpose of comparison with the quote from the above, unnamed source.

To repeat the information, borrowing from James Swan, who was himself borrowing from

From the Beggars All page @ above provided link;

4. Previous translations of the word “alone” in Romans 3:28

Luther offers another line of reasoning in his “Open Letter on Translating” that many of the current Cyber-Roman Catholics ignore (and most Protestants are not aware of):

Now here comes the fun part in this discussion.

The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] with the word “alone.”

Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):

Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).

Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).

Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).

Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).

John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).

Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ]).

Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.

Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).

To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):

Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).

Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] : Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] : We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).

See further:

Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.

Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).

Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.

Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.

Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), “allein durch den glauben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say “per sola fede.”


700 posted on 07/21/2017 4:32:46 AM PDT by BlueDragon (whattya' mean you don't believe in Climate Change? the weather always seems to be changing...)
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