Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

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[metmom]

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. - Hebrews 6: 4-8

This is the passage in question.

What it's saying is that once you get saved, if you blow it, your done. No more chances to get saved again.

So if the Catholic sins and falls out of the state of grace, then he's forever lost.

And you agree with this?

[ADSUM]

Your comment: “No sacraments can give grace. Grace comes directly from God through faith.”

ACTUAL GRACE

It derives its name, actual, from the Latin actualis (ad actum), for it is granted by God for the performance of salutary acts and is present and disappears with the action itself. Its opposite, therefore, is not possible grace, which is without usefulness or importance, but habitual grace, which causes a state of holiness, so that the mutual relations between these two kinds of grace are the relations between action and state, not those between actuality arid potentiality.

SANCTIFYING GRACE

Since the end and aim of all efficacious grace is directed to the production of sanctifying grace where it does not already exist, or to retain and increase it where it is already present, its excellence, dignity, and importance become immediately apparent; for holiness and the sonship of God depend solely upon the possession of sanctifying grace, wherefore it is frequently called simply grace without any qualifying word to accompany it as, for instance, in the phrases “to live in grace” or “to fall from grace”.

Read the whole article. https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/grace

[metmom]

Is someone who believes/trust their salvation in Christ but commits adultery and leave their earthly partner in Christ for the affair partner, murder, perpetually lie, covet their neighbor's goods, fornicate every Saturday night but still go to Church Sunday morning, steal but know they can ask forgiveness so all is good o they can go ahead and keep the stuff, and constantly treat their neighbor like crap still saved?

Someone who is truly regenerated will not live like that.

That example does not negate the truth that our sin cannot separate the believer from God.

Calvinism has spiritual/intellectual problems as well in light of all the Catholic bashing, Baptist bashing, Luther bashing, etc... constantly being bandied about. Christ did all the work, however the theology of the “Christian has no responsibility how they act” is extremely short-sighted. Jesus is Lord's verse on post #3 pointed out the futility of that theology.

As for the verse in post three, which I just addressed. If you hold to that, does that mean you also hold to what it says that you have ONE chance at salvation and if you blow it, that's it? You're done? No more chances for you again ever?

Is that what you believe, too?

[metmom]

Grace is received from Christ through faith.

John 1:14-17 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:20-26 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[metmom]

I’ll say one thing for Catholicism.

It can complicate something so simple to a degree that the federal government would be jealous of.

[rollo tomasi]

As you pointed out, this is about perspective and humility which will “bless” a believer to act accordance to God's will. I do believe a person can “fall from Grace” and revert back to their (Dog's) vomit however.

Also unbelievers make mince meat of the hypocrisy as well which was a point in n post #3. Anton LeVey started his perverted “ministry for Satan”/humanist “church” based on his observance of supposedly Christian people living in debauchery for 6 days a week, but asking forgiveness every Sunday morning and just repeating the cycle without any intention of really trying to repent.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Anybody who says a true Saved by the Blood of Christ Christian can lose their salvation needs to check the words of Christ over and over.

Pentecostlas and “Church” of Christ are some of the worst culprits of this evil legalism.

What must be done to be saved?

John 3:36
John 6:29
Romans 10:9-10
Acts 16:31

[mountainfolk]

That is why we Catholics have Jesuits.The good, the bad, and the ugly socialists included. Accommodating a lot of religious scholars teaches mental agility.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Guess that means you lost your salvation then.
Since you “Salvation” are a wretched sinner as much as me and the next guy.

Exactly why I left the Catholic “faith”.

[metmom]

Well, lots of people PROFESS to believe in Christ and Jesus said that there would be those who on that day say, *Lord, Lord, didn’t we........(fill in the blank) in your name?* and He will sent them off with a *I never knew you*.

Those who give the impression that you can accept Jesus and then live like the devil are those who give a bad name to the Scriptural promises of the security of the believers.

Wolves in sheep’s clothing are still wolves and were never saved to begin with.

The hard part is that there are some who are weak and just continually struggle with sin.

But the flaunting your sin and spitting in the face of God kind of attitude that is described by those who would attack the security of the believer is not representative of the believer.

So, yes, all believers ARE secure.

But not all who profess Christ are because not all who profess Christ are saved.

[metmom]

I’m pretty sure God will not be used to justify a life of debauchery.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Wow!
The confusion over something as simple as Salvation in Christ is deep on FR! LOL!

[rollo tomasi]

Nope (To emphasize the debauchery/God connections) which is why every Christian needs to seriously reflect on their actions that affect all those around them and promote behaviors that enhance the love for Christ/God. Everyone slips, however the degree can/should be controlled.

[MHGinTN]

What must be the bitter state of one who utters such an insult, steeped in the fallacy of the undistributed middle, among several buoying up that spittle geist.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

It derives its name, actual, from the Latin actualis

Gibberish. Grace is detailed in Greek language - the language of the NT.

God does not distinguish two types of Grace. That is man made stuff.

Nor is there any action you can to gain grace. By nature, it is undeserved.

[MHGinTN]

You are trying to comprehend a spiritual truth through carnal thinking. You addressed “Christian has no responsibility how they act” as if you have stumbled upon a flaw. In reality, such an one as you describe is not only not a Christian, they put The Grace of God in Christ to open shame. Have you read 1 Cor 5 ? It might help ... or not, for spiritual things are discerned by the spirit not the carnal mind needing pride in self striving to obtain Grace.

[rollo tomasi]

The Spiritual side is self-evident, however the current state of many so-called Christians is the exact opposite. A lot believe if you have “faith” then abortion is acceptable, adultery is excusable and taken for granted, same-sex matrimony sanctioned by Churches are acceptable, theft in certain cases are excusable, etc...

Who is anyone to judge as long as “I believe”. Christ commanded those who defy repenting to be treated like Gentiles and tax collectors. These same people who refuse to repent are insisting they have faith and are saved. There is a great falling away; who are they falling away from (Which makes the OT of the thread very convoluted)?

[metmom]

It derives its name, actual, from the Latin actualis (ad actum), for it is granted by God for the performance of salutary acts and is present and disappears with the action itself.

That makes it wages due for performance.

That is NOT grace if you have to do something to attain it.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

[Mark17]

But not all who profess Christ are because not all who profess Christ are saved.

Ain't that the truth. There are millions who think they are Christians, but are actually enemies of God, who will wake up in the fires of Hell, and say, didn't we do many good works in your name?
These people never lost their salvation. They never had it to begin with. Unregenerate sinners from the start. They need to get their act together, and if they don't, that's on them.

[daniel1212]

The problem with the thinking that you can lose your salvation is that instead of seeing God as a loving heavenly Father who WANTS to save people, He becomes a Divine scorekeeper nit picking at every little slip up that people make. There’s no room for compassion, grace, or mercy. It’s just legalistic law keeping, and if you make the grade, God is obligated to let you in.

That can be the case, as can OSAS in turning Godwho considers a mere profession of careless souls as saving faith, but an honest objective reading of Scripture results in unmistakable warnings to believers against falling away:

I believe that God will both preserve His word and continue the work He began with convicting me of sin, righteousness and judgment, and opening my heart, etc., for which i can claim zero credit. And since this means continuing in faith (versus mere profession), then God works to chasten us to repentance if needed.

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

If God did not work such repentance, then we would be. Yet the fact that God continues this work does not mean that I could not or cannot resist and reject Christ (which is the only thing i can really take credit for), and cannot choose to do what Scripture clearly warn believers, as believers, against. Such as,

And because ye are sons [Paul's audience], God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:6)

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again [those who were set free] with the yoke of bondage [going back into what they were set free from]. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if [submission to Judaizers these believers are being warned against] ye be circumcised [signifying justification obtained by keeping all the law], Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become [an effectual change due to their choice] of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace[their former state]. For we [those who continue to believe] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)

Take heed, brethren, [contextually not a general sense, but as believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God [a departure from their former state s believers]. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin [a change of heart]. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [[perseverance of the saints]. (Hebrews 3:12-14)

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering [continued exhortation to persevere]; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, [indicating departing from the faith, as follows] as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

For if [a choice brethren are warned against] we [not just you] sin wilfully [not out of weakness, but with full consent, as a decision not to continue but to depart, signified by giving up being with the believers] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [a term which refers to believing, as per 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 3:7], there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [cf. Hebrews 6:6-8; a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness, having forfeited what saving faith obtained], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [a past condition, appropriated by faith, now forfeited by a definite denial of the same] , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, [the issue being faith, out of which obedience flows] which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise [not that doing earns the promise, but that saving faith is that which finally perseveres, which faith as manifested in works God - who gave faith and the ability and motivation to obey - rewards under grace] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith [the just live by faith, not merely profess it, with such faith being what appropriates justification]: but if any man draw back [a denial of justifying faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him [as solemnly, fearfully described above]. But we [who do not draw back, but persevere] are not of them who draw back unto perdition [contextually a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness due to treating Christ with contempt] but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

Such departing from the the living God, drawing backing into perdition, falling from grace, etc., is likely the the "great transgression," (Psalms 9:13) that of having "wickedly departed from my God,"(2 Samuel 22:22) which David stated he did not do, despite his sins, for unlike apostates he overall kept the ways of the Lord, and confessed in repentance when convicted of not doing so, (2 Samuel 12:7-13)

It is the Father's will that none should perish and that all whom the Father gives Christ shall be saved, but as with Judas, there are some sons of perdition. Thus it is manifest who the elect are, vessels fit for honor, and who they are not, vessels fitted for destruction, but I am sure you have a case for the elect being all who were ever regenerated, and God not allowing them to die in impenitent denial of the faith. Whatever glorifies God most should be what we at least want.

I once held to OSAS myself, and by nature would like to now, but in the light of Scripture find it incontrovertible that believers are being addressed as believers in these texts, I cannot see how all such can be dismissed as hypothetical, or that the consequences warned of are less than that of damnation as lost soul, and of them being the more accountable.

Yet i pray and trust that as David said, The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O Lord, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands. (Psalms 138:8)