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To: MHGinTN
1. You are making a valid point, in this sense: If Mary understood herself to be married to Joseph in the full manner such that "all her reproductive genetic future was espoused to Joseph," (as you correctly said), then, yes, God would have been a defrauder / cuckolder of Joseph, in that He took Joseph's wife and impregnated her. A shocking thing, and not be be thought of: God would not violate a married couple this way.

But God is not a defrauder / cuckolder of Joseph because we believe that Mary and Joseph were never intended to have a conjugal marriage in the full sense of that word (sexual union).

We believe Mary understood herself to be consecrated to virginity, and Joseph understood himself to be her legal husband for the purpose of sheltering her in his home and providing for her. It was an exceptional situation. Having children was not contemplated.

This explains why she didn't understand how she was supposed to have a son, since she did not envision giving up her virginity. If she thought she was going to have sex with Joseph, she would not have been (initially) shocked when the Archangel said she would have a son. She would have (initially, naturally) assumed that her son would be a son she'd have with Joseph. But this was not the case.

2. God did not have to use a human ovum to make Adam or Eve. He did have to use a human ovum to make Jesus, because Jesus had to be Son of Mary (as it says in Scripture), son of David (as it says in Scripture), son of Abraham (as it says in Scripture), son of Adam (as it says in Scripture). I.e. Son of Man, according to the flesh. Genetically. By natural descent.

This is the point of the various genealogies and the long lists of "begats" in the Bible.

Acts 2:29-30 - (KJV)

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne

To be a "son" and a member of a family "according to the flesh" means you are genetically related. Jesus was genetically related to Mary. He was her Seed, the Seed of the Woman (as it says in Scripture), her natural Son --- He, Who was begotten by God.
105 posted on 05/13/2017 7:54:29 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (O Mary, He whom the whole Universe cannot contain, enclosed Himself in your womb and was made man.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“We believe Mary understood herself to be consecrated to virginity, and Joseph understood himself to be her legal husband for the purpose of sheltering her in his home and providing for her. It was an exceptional situation. Having children was not contemplated.”

Then why, when Joseph learned she was with child, did he react as he did and attempt to send her away?


123 posted on 05/13/2017 8:47:57 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Die Gedanken sind Frei)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; MHGinTN
But God is not a defrauder / cuckolder of Joseph because we believe that Mary and Joseph were never intended to have a conjugal marriage in the full sense of that word (sexual union).

Except that there is absolutely zero support from Scripture that Mary and Joseph entered into anything but a normal marital relationship.

From the fact that mary was already legally married to Joseph, that the angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary AS HIS WIFE, that Scripture tells us that he did not know her until after she had given birth, that he had conjugal relations with her after that, that Scripture goes on to mention that He had brothers and sisters and names the brothers.

God in no way defrauded Joseph of anything, including his rights as a married man to enjoy sex with his legal wife and produce offspring with her, and she had many, a sign of God's blessing on a woman in those days.

166 posted on 05/14/2017 5:53:52 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; MHGinTN
We believe Mary understood herself to be consecrated to virginity, and Joseph understood himself to be her legal husband for the purpose of sheltering her in his home and providing for her. It was an exceptional situation. Having children was not contemplated.

*We believe* = opinion.

This explains why she didn't understand how she was supposed to have a son, since she did not envision giving up her virginity. If she thought she was going to have sex with Joseph, she would not have been (initially) shocked when the Archangel said she would have a son. She would have (initially, naturally) assumed that her son would be a son she'd have with Joseph. But this was not the case.

Nonsense again. She was shocked because she and Joseph had not yet consummated their marriage and she had been faithful to him, not because she never intended to have children.

ANY normal woman would also ask that same question. *I haven't had sex. How can I get or be pregnant?*

It would have been a perfectly reasonable question for ANYONE to ask.

167 posted on 05/14/2017 5:57:44 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
So the brothers and sisters of Jesus were from a second wife Joseph took while still married to Mary? ... Your intricate defense of catholic/satanic dogma is duly noted, and rejected for the deceit it reveals. You are desperate to make your institution's proclamation defended, thus tossing reason aside to try and make The Word of God bend to your insitution's interpretation of events.

You have zero proof that GOD took an ovum from Mary. You have your flawed reasoning telling you to defend this notion even beyond reason, but you have zero proof. That Mary gestated Jesus in her womb as 'surrogate' fulfills the honor of JESUS being the seed of the woman. Just as Joseph raising Jesus as his own son makes JESUS heir to the line of Joseph.

Having decided to make the Mother of Jesus into a demigoddess of supernatural powers, you desperately twist The Word of GOD to support the desired focal demigoddess. The Gospel as delivered did not make MAry into a demigoddess, your religios institution did it to woo more pagans into 'the church'. The cult of Astatre is very very old, and is woven into the pagan religions of early Palestine and Italia, A little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf ...

180 posted on 05/14/2017 10:30:48 AM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensational perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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