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To: LurkingSince'98; Campion

Stop being ridiculous. I read through it before you had initially posted on this thread.

Tell me though (bet you can't) how does any of what Campion posted contravene a fairly long list of witnesses from within the Church, including from within the Roman Catholic Church who did not agree with say, what's alleged to come from a "Pope Damasus"?

According to Cajetan even popes are overruled in this instance, Perhaps what should be looked upon as more actually "obvious" is that you possibly did not take the time or trouble to read through much of anything I posted, much less browse through the supplied link?

Here's snippet from what I had posted already on this forum, from Cardinal Cajetan, this time short enough you may see what is significant;

"... Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith.

I'll leave it up to you to go and find the next line where Cajetan writes of how the books in question enjoyed limited acceptance, as being what elsewhere has been referred to as "ecclesiastical writings", yet not fully canonical.

As possible assistance in that endeavor (your mission, should you chose to accept it --cue the Mission Impossible soundtrack for exciting background music while you spy out territories possibly new to yourself) here's another smallish snippet, this time from Rufinus, a scholar himself and contemporary of Jerome;

"...But it should be known that there are also other books which our fathers call not 'Canonical' but 'Ecclesiastical:' that is to say, Wisdom, called the Wisdom of Solomon, and another Wisdom, called the Wisdom of the Son of Syrach, which last-mentioned the Latins called by the general title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book, but the character of the writing. To the same class belong the Book of Tobit, and the Book of Judith, and the Books of the Maccabees. In the New Testament the little book which is called the Book of the Pastor of Hermas (and that) which is called the Two Ways, or the Judgment of Peter; all of which they would have read in the Churches, but not appealed to for the confirmation of doctrine. ..." (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953), Rufinus, Commentary on the Apostles' Creed 36, p. 557-558.).
Jerome, from among letters that man wrote;
Let her treasures be not silks or gems but manuscripts of the holy scriptures...Let her begin by learning the psalter, and then let her gather rules of life out of the proverbs of Solomon...Let her follow the example set in Job of virtue and patience. Then let her pass on to the gospels...the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles...let her commit to memory the prophets, the heptateuch, the books of Kings and of Chronicles, the rolls also of Ezra and Esther. When she has done all these she may safely read the Song of Songs...Let her avoid all apocryphal writings, and if she is led to read such not by the truth of the doctrines which they contain but out of respect for the miracles contained in them; let her understand that they are not really written by those to whom they are ascribed, that many faulty elements have been introduced into them, and that it requires infinite discretion to look for gold in the midst of dirt. (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953, Volume VI, St. Jerome, Letter CVII.12)
As for Campion's own statement;

To which I'll reply,

Claims, any claims which assert, allege, or intend to convey idea that the books in question here ever enjoyed anything approaching unanimous acceptance, (up until Trent, and somewhat after, within the Latin Church, itself) as anything more than lesser-ranked, non-canonical, "ecclesistical writings" not to be indiscriminately regarded as equal to the Old Testament (as known by the Jews as their own Tanakh) is ahistorical balderdash. And that, on a good day.

89 posted on 02/16/2017 3:21:05 AM PST by BlueDragon (my kinfolk had to fight off wagon burnin' scalp taking Comanches, reckon we could take on a few more)
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To: BlueDragon
As possible assistance in that endeavor (your mission, should you chose to accept it --cue the Mission Impossible soundtrack for exciting background music while you spy out territories possibly new to yourself) here's another smallish snippet, this time from Rufinus, a scholar himself and contemporary of Jerome

Don't forget Trent's scholar Cardinal Seripando.

"The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin explained “he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent.

“[Seripando was] Impressed by the doubts of St. Jerome, Rufinus, and St. John Damascene about the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, Seripando favored a distinction in the degrees of authority of the books of the Florentine canon. The highest authority among all the books of the Old Testament must be accorded those which Christ Himself and the apostles quoted in the New Testament, especially the Psalms. But the rule of citation in the New Testament does not indicate the difference of degree in the strict sense of the word, because certain Old Testament books not quoted in the New Testament are equal in authority to those quoted. St. Jerome gives an actual difference in degree of authority when he gives a higher place to those books which are adequate to prove a dogma than to those which are read merely for edification. The former, the protocanonical books, are “libri canonici et authentici“; Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only “canonici et ecclesiastici” and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome’s view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.”

Source: Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271.

125 posted on 02/16/2017 1:11:11 PM PST by redleghunter (Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation)
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