Posted on 12/29/2016 8:19:15 AM PST by Read Write Repeat
Rabbi Tovia Singer responds to a former Arab Muslim woman regarding her conversion to Conservative Judaism.
I may be wrong about this, but I don't think Orthodox Rabbis even recognize other branches of Judaism.
Does being Conservative make you Orthodox?
Usually not. She has several choices however. She can stay in conservative movement. She can pursue conversion into orthodox (takes work and persistence but she can find a welcome if she’s sincere to do it — she said she doesn’t wish or can’t afford to move to a place near an orthodox synagogue where she could pray and observe the sabbath — so right now that’s an impediment for her — ). Judaism teaches that you do NOT have to become Jewish to go to Heaven /gan eden. And Judaism expects more commitment or behavioral observance from Jews than from the “righteous non Jews” who will also go to Heaven just as well. Therefore, while all are welcome to convert to the Jewish faith, a good rabbi will require both sincere study and commutment or resolve of purpose. Since being a Jew requires a lot more of the person than being a “righteous non- Jew” and becoming Jewish confers no additional “heavenly” or ultimate benefits in the life to come. She should not confuse a rabbi’s caution and requirements as a lack of welcome — thryre just designed to make sure she understands she’s undertaking a serious commitment that will require some Real adjustments in her life. — adjustment she didn’t sound quite ready to undertake in her phone call. She can be just fine with God without converting - nevertheless.
No. They’re different. The co servwtic movement abandoned quite a lot of biblical teachings — there are some “pretty orthodoxies” conservative Jews who do try to be as bully observant as possible but the movement itself is an attempt at a compromise. —whereas most Orthodox Jews try to live as much in conformance with God’s teachings as they can. It’s mostly a differ nice in orientation or attitude, imho, but most orthodox rabbis will not accept a conservative conversion. If the individual sincerely wants to join an orthodox congregation and understands that his or her life may need further adjusting — then she should speak with an orthodox rabbi for sure and he will help her. (But no more driving to prayers on the sabbath).
I hate spellcheck. Conservative ! Fully !!! (Spellcheck sucks! Let’s see what it does to that remark, haha!!)
I think being Orthodox makes you conservative, but i'm don't think it works the other way around. You can be conservative and be an adherent to pretty much any religion, or even none at all.
Of course this highly depends on what you mean by the word "conservative."
We don’t convert Muslims.
Rabbi Tovia Singer is a rabbi in a Moslem country (Indonesia). That country’s law, like Saudi Arabia’s and some more Moslem-dominated lands, does not allowed him (or Cheistian ministers) to offer conversion to Moslems(though, of course, it may happen...). A Moslem who sincerely wishes to convert to Judaism somewhere else, like in USA, may usually do so.
We don’t convert Muslims. There’s a biblical reason for this.
Well, i am not an expert. You may know a lot more than I and if so, please inform me please. I only know that there have been some converts from Islam to Judaism ever since Islam got started. These have included some who became known rabbis of note, and that there are some Moslems even today who do decide to convert to Judaism, believing it to be a preferable monotheism or finding things in the world of Islam that they do not agree with or wish to abide by.
Secondly, there are Biblical precedents for welcoming non-Jews into the Jewish community, such as Deuteronomy 10:18, plus a couple more I can’t recall offhand but they’re in there, plus several teachings that Jews are to welcome the stranger and ...yes, those that do convert into Judaism. There is also the much-revered experience of Ruth (who, mikvah possibly aside, is widely considered and honored for having joined the Jewish people as at least a defacto convert...and we mustn’t overlook the fact that she became a matriarch of King David and thus Messiah, too). Jewish tradition includes honoring Sarah, wife of Abraham, along with Abraham as the spiritual parents of those that convert to the Jewish faith (and rabbis will often offer the names Abraham, Sarah, or Ruth to new converts should they wish to adopt them...because Jewish tradition teaches both Abraham and Sarah welcomed outsiders into their fold...which would of course generate the Jewish people). The Jewish Talmud recognizes converts to Judaism and honors them with the moniker of “newborn babes” (Yevanot 22a) in the people of Israel, to be welcomed as newborn babies are welcomed into any loving human family. (some limitations may still apply in Orthodoxy but only in limited circumstances).
I am not a scholar so my knowledge is limited but...there are yet two more reasons why at least some Moslems can be welcomed into the Jewish faith. It is simply because so many Jews were foricbly converted to Islam over the centuries (yes, I realize Islam teaches that faith is a matter of individual conscious but that was not always the actual PRACTICE). ALSO, the 10 “Lost Tribes” of Israel went to some countries which later were taken over (and mostly forcibly converted) to Islam. For both of these historical reasons, many Moslems (especially those that sincerely feel in their hearts drawn to Jewish faith) can be “welcomed back” into the Jewish People. It is said that such people “have a Jewish heart” if they wish to “convert” or “return” to the Jewish faith. There are records of forcible Jewish conversions in most countries that have been conquered by Islam. And there are records or reasons to believe Jewish people including the Ten Tribes (their descendants) are today living (mostly as Moslems) in Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Khazakstan, Arabia, Tunisia, Egypt, Moracco, and so forth. It is not easy to convert to Judaism because Judaism is not a prosthesyting religion, and indeed the rabbis will require usually a year or two of study so that the individual learns just what s/he is undertaking. Judaism is not only a profession of faith, it is largely (mostly, many would say) a system or path of moral life. There’s a lot to learn, even for ethnic ‘returnees.’ But, I’ve always heard that the door is open...for the sincere seeker...
Again, does Judaism go out seeking to wean people away from Islam? NO! Absolutely not. This is for at least 3 reasons, 1. Judaism is a community a people not only a profession. Second, Judaism does not require anyone to become Jewish to go to Heaven (in this respect, Judaism is quite different and far more universal than much of Christianity...anyone interested can look up the “Noahide Laws” for more information). Third, there is the practical consequence that in some Islamic countries anyone leaving Islam can be punished very severely ... the rabbis do not wish to help bring this on anyone...especially since Judaism does not require Jewish faith profesion to go to Heaven in the first place.
But, for all of the above reasons and possibly more that I don’t know, if a person sincerely feels drawn to Judaism there s/he can usually find a rabbi who will discuss the Jewish faith with them. If you are aware of any contrary authority I will welcome learning of it, I am not an expert by any means. Please do be so kind as to correct me in any error I may have posted, thank you very much!
Thanks sincerely.
fhc
ps: if you would prefer to email me using private mail on this, please you are very welcome to do this, too
thanks thanks very much for your patience as I try to understrand and get clarified on this matter!
sincerely yours,
fhc
Thank you for taking the time to write up such a lengthy reply. What you’re presenting is a very liberal view and we’re talking about Orthodox.
Maybe a third time: Orthodox don’t convert Muslims.
The simple explanation is Ishmael was promised a nation even though not under The Covenant, and if they live as righteous Gentiles, then they have a place alongside us Jews in the World to Come.
An Orthodox conversion is a very, very different process than any other Jewish movement, and it has extremely strict halacha interpretations.
No. There are a lot of Orthodox who attend Conservative shuls, and a significant portion of Conservative rabbis are some flavor of Modern Orthodox because they're hired by the synagogue (and not the other way around).
You do get a lot of people who return to Judaism and have no clue what they're doing for awhile because they grew up non-practicing or in one of the more liberal movements. If they stick with it, they tend to become more frum over time. Conservative won't recognize Reform or any other liberal movement's conversions or ketubahs (marriage contracts).
People have a hard time understanding what the difference is, so I basically explain it like this:
ORTHODOX: You must accept the Torah is unquestionably Divine.
CONSERVATIVE: Here's a bunch of different opinions and we hope by presenting it this way, you conclude the Torah is unquestionably Divine.
This is incorrect. No rabbi in any of the Orthodox movements will recognize a Conservative, Traditional, Reconstructionist, etc. conversion.
Sorry, pet peeve: halacha is much more than dietary laws. Also, there’s a lot of variety in Orthodox movements and the various traditions (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, etc.)
Agreed so far as I know you are correct My wording was imprecise. Thanks
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