Conditionalism Vs Eternal Torment Vs Universal Reconciliation

Unsealed.org ^ | 11/29/16 | Gary

[Mr. Douglas]

I’m a member of a site called Rethinkinghell.com and the sister, rethinkinghell in facebook. For me, it all started with this thread that began my turn from ECT to CI:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2240648/posts

[Mr. Douglas]

I was Robroy back then. I posted quite a bit because I was “bench testing” the argument and was looking for anyone to successfully poke holes in it. Nobody ever did. It’s part of the reason I changed my view.

[georgiegirl]

A born again Christian who has a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ spends very little time thinking about hell. It is a real place, Jesus spoke about it a lot. When we have received Him, the fear of death and hell no longer torments us, and our thoughts turn to the joy of living for Him and spending eternity with Him when we are in heaven, our real home. This joy compels us to tell others this good news, so they too could abandon their fear of death and hell for the hope of heaven and the joy of a living relationship with Jesus.

[Mr. Douglas]

It is a real place, Jesus spoke about it a lot.

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Yes. It is a real place. It is actually a physical place. It is also spoken of in Jeremiah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

Jesus is painting a very clear picture of the fate of the lost when He uses that word (Gehenna, which some English bibles translate as “hell”). It is where kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.

[Mr. Douglas]

A born again Christian who has a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ spends very little time thinking about hell.

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You would think that would be true, but it’s almost all the preachers in the bible belt talk about. I know this because I’m in a southern Gospel band that plays at a LOT of churches in Kentucky. The main message I hear is that hell is terrible and you don’t want to go there.

If it was just a benign teaching, that would be one thing, but I believe the hell message damages the Gospel. Thing is, we are to seek His presence out of a desire to be with Him, not out of fear of Him torturing us. The latter may fill pews, but it fills them only with posers hedging their bets.

It also paints God as a MONSTER who created most human beings to be forever tortured. It doesn’t make sense when you actually read His word. Nowhere does God torure his enemies. What he does is destroy them.

[angryoldfatman]

I’m not getting in the middle of a religious dogpile here. Just want to chime in that the Universal Reconciliation doctrine (number 3) is heretical at best, and is a favorite among liberal theology (or non-theology, in the case of Unitarian Universalist) churches.

[GOP_Party_Animal]

I find it fascinating that such a supposedly key doctrine is found nowhere in doctrinal statements that represent almost the entirety of the early Church even though these statements are not silent on the fact that an eschatological judgment is coming for the unsaved.

I don't find it fascinating because it's splitting hairs; whether you're tortured endlessly or utterly annihilated, Hell is a bad place and you don't want to go there. Who cares about the details? I don't think the Unsaved will meet demons with pitchforks, but those images still convey "Hell is bad" and that's enough information. Like georgiegirl says, keep your mind focused on Heaven, the details of Hell are all bad and don't need contemplation.

I do wonder one thing about this theory though: Why torture the Unsaved for even a finite period of time? There is a Hell, we know that. But what is served for the soul that is tortured and disappears?

[PeterPrinciple]

It also paints God as a MONSTER

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Yep, a MONSTER who would send his only son to die on the cross. A Holy God, who can have no sin in is presence. A Just God who must punish sin.

But your God is a loving God, he would never do such things because it offends your way of thinking (which is obvious in your comments)............................

He must be Just and Holy. Mercy is at his discretion.

Isa_33:6 In that day He will be your sure foundation, providing a rich store of salvation, wisdom, and knowledge. The fear of the LORD will be your treasure.

Act_9:31 The church then had peace throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria, and it became stronger as the believers lived in the fear of the Lord. And with the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, it also grew in numbers.

This “no hell” concept is a recent LIBERAL view (becoming popular in the mid 1800’s) because it offends human nature. IT has not stood the test of sound doctrine.

[xone]

but it fills them only with posers hedging their bets.

I'll assume you are talking about churches that preach the Gospel of our Lord.

The 'posers' are in a church where they hear the Word of God, faith comes by hearing. If they weren't 'hedging their bets' would they be in church exposed to the Word? Did not Christ die for their sins as well? The Law and the Holy Spirit convict the sinful heart, if they are absent from church how will they hear the remedy.

Nowhere does God torture his enemies.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hell was created for the Devil and his angels. But: Matt 24:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[bethelgrad]

I’m a regular reader of the site as well. Sympathetic but not yet convinced.

[SoFloFreeper]

some reformed resources, for a biblical perspective:

http://www.ligonier.org/search/?q=Hell&object_type=Article

[georgiegirl]

God created our soul in his own image, to live forever. It is our choice WHERE we will spend eternity. He has made every effort to put a roadblock to hell for us, He sacrificed His own Son to keep us from going there. He sent the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin and to lead us into all righteousness. We have the responsibility to submit our own will to this plan of God’s, sometimes referred to as “the foolishness of God”. Such a plan seems foolish to the natural man, but to the one that humbly submits to Him, it is salvation (rescue from hell).

[boxlunch]

I began exploring these concepts because our church is ultra reformed and both my husband and myself had extreme issues with 5 point hypercalvinism once we finally understood what it was really teaching- it is just not Biblical and it logically leads to some very monstrous claims about the nature of God. We are both engineers so we have to sort through things that logically don't make sense, so we've been studying this for a couple of years. As we studied scripture and the writings of the early church fathers, I came across books and articles on Universal reconciliation.

One thing many do not know is that the word used for eternal when connected with punishment is aeonion, which means of an ag or duration of time. It can indicated something that lasts for a specific age and is usually in the context of related to God, or of a quality given by God.

Also the word for punishment is Kolasis which can have the meaning of a redemptive correction rather than the angry wrath. It is painful and severe but the purpose is to bring repentance.

I am leaning toward Universal Reconciliation - my husband has become a traditionalist or Arminian, but I found this article on Annialationism very interesting also, and I am going to study this further.

[Mr. Douglas]

I’ll assume you are talking about churches that preach the Gospel of our Lord.

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No. I’m talking about churches that preach the “turn or burn” message, which is not scriptural.

[Mr. Douglas]

” Nowhere does God torture his enemies.”

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hell was created for the Devil and his angels. But: Matt 24:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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Yeah. I’m sorry I wasn’t more precise. I was talking about past events (OT) and I was talking about Humans. After all, Christ died for humans.

And again, the devil and his angels are not humans. Also, you are using Revelation, which is a book of symbols. Just as the seven churches are not literal lampstands, many of the other alegories/symbols are similar. But I’m trying to re-invent the wheel. Ed Fudge covers it very well in his book and movie.

[Mr. Douglas]

Yep, a MONSTER who would send his only son to die on the cross. A Holy God, who can have no sin in is presence. A Just God who must punish sin.

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Yes. And He died. He was not eternally tortured. Only the saved are eternal. The lost are destroyed in the second death. Like Jesus, they die, except they are not resurrected after the second death. That is why their condition is eternal.

[Mr. Douglas]

This “no hell” concept is a recent LIBERAL view (becoming popular in the mid 1800’s) because it offends human nature. IT has not stood the test of sound doctrine.

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Two things:
1. it is not recent. Rather, thanks to the explosion of the sharing of knowledge thanks to the internet, it is gaining the popularity it had 2000 years ago.

It is similar to the things that Martin Luther disagreed with in Catholic teachings that had been the mainline beliefs for a very long time. But they are no longer, and rightfully so.

[Mr. Douglas]

This “no hell” concept is a recent LIBERAL view...

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Jesus never used the word “hell”. He used the word Gehenna. It is a place with a morbid history. A history His listeners were very familiar with. The message is clear.

[Mr. Douglas]

God created our soul in his own image, to live forever.

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Yes. Sadly, Adams sin ended it. In fact, it is clear in Genesis that God removed Adam and Eve from the tree of life so they would NOT live forever.