Posted on 10/02/2016 11:40:45 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
And not a person on the planet has ever done that nor can do it, save Jesus.
If you think that you've perfectly kept God's law and never transgressed, you are operating under a level of delusion that there is almost no hope for.
That puts you in the same class as the pharisees.
That's as weak an argument as any that anyone has put forth.
There are lots of things that we have words for to describe things in Scripture.
do you also reject *trinity*, *incarnation*, and *virgin birth* as well?
Do you believe that Romans 4 contradicts Romans 2?
Romans 4 speaks of the law of the Pharisees, while Romans 2 speaks of Torah.
Were you a Bible believer, the contradiction you try to create would stand out like a sore thumb.
Romans 2
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 4
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
It is a lie to say that you believe on Yeshua if you do not follow the same Torah that he did.
1John 2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning.
The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
There is no grace for any who reject his loving Torah. Stop deceiving yourself; the end will not be good.
The Book starts with seven letters that are pretty easy to understand.
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>> “And not a person on the planet has ever done that nor can do it, save Jesus.” <<
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You are calling Yeshua and his apostles liars.
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Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
The arguments for a rapture are quite weak. I’ve heard them all. If you cherry pick you can come up with a good argument, but when the verses are put into context it falls apart.
I disagree but you know what?
If or when it happens, it’ll be what it’s going to be and our belief about it will be irrelevant because anyone’s belief about it is not going to be what causes it to happen.
Someone is going to be surprised no matter which way it falls out and since it’s not an issue that anyone’s salvation is dependent on, then it doesn’t matter if others disagree with me or you or anyone else.
Since the Tribulation is God’s judgment on an unbelieving world and directed at Israel, I personally don’t believe that the church is going to be going through it. Born again believers have already passed out of judgment and there’s no need for a God of mercy and grace to subject His children to that. And if that’s art of what you call a *weak* argument, then so be it. I can’t help your opinion.
That's true...But James and Romans 2 where that is stated were written before Romans 3...And in Romans 3 that all changed...All ya gotta do is read it...
Sure they do...Research the phrase 'caught up'...
Note, however, you do not try to reconcile the verses, nor do you even bother to even give an interpretation of the verses you do give. As for Romans 2, this is part of Paul's argument by which he concludes that no one can keep the law. Chapter 2 is how the Jews fail to keep the law, though, if they did, they would surely have been justified; and chapter 1 was targeting the Gentiles, showing their depravity. Hence Paul, in chapter 3, concludes that he had already proven that neither Jews nor Gentiles are justified by the law:
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
It is a lie to say that you believe on Yeshua if you do not follow the same Torah that he did.
Best to read the verses in context:
1Jn_3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
These are the commandments he references. It cannot be the "Law of Moses," since these are dispensed with in Acts 15.
Agree,
Then ,,a Dream
That some day will be perfectly understood!
Sure they would. If anyone could actually ever DO the Law. ALL of it. PERFECTLY.
Nobody can (Except Jesus) and since nobody else can, we all come under the condemnation of the law.
And since we are under the condemnation of the Law for failing to keep it, then it cannot justify us because we have not kept it perfectly.
Your whole argument is self-defeating as you have not proved that anyone can keep the law.
Tell me, where do you go for the required yearly sacrifices? If you haven't, you have broken the Law.
Did you observe the last year of Jubilee? If you haven't, you have broken the Law.
Where do you bring your first fruits offerings? If you haven't done that, you have broken the Law.
You appealed to Matthew and the Beatitudes.
Have you followed the INTENT of the Law as expressed there? PERFECTLY? Never looked on a woman to lust after her? EVER?
Never hated your brother?
Always gone the extra mile? ALWAYS?
Does your righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees? Then you are not entering the Kingdom of Heaven.
The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe. Prov 29:25
Love to try it. I'll watch for it in my travels.
Amen!
Pre-wrath rapture view ... it was demolished by Showers book.
“Pre-wrath rapture view ... it was demolished by Showers book”
Showers did not even critique the actual pre-wrath rapture view but merely responded to two or three books written on the subject years earlier (early nineties, if memory serves me). (Showers wrote this book in 2001.)
I have read every argument against this view that I could find. I did not come to it because I prefer to go through the Great Tribulation or have a fascination with some “new doctrine”. I found in my early years of Bible study that what I had always been taught about the rapture did not fit with the scriptures. I read commentaries and consulted scholars to help me understand what I had missed. What I found was that NO ONE ever formed a systematic exegetical study that demonstrated a pre-tribulational (i.e. pre-seventieth week because the pre-trib view does not properly distinguish what the tribulation is). The theory is purely anecdotal. Rather than exegeting the scriptures, the theory starts with the proposition of a pre-trib rapture and then seeks for proof texts, exactly like cults do to prop up their false doctrines.
The exception to this is, of course, the proper exegesis of Daniel’s seventieth week, which is something all pre-millenials should agree on.
I have seen many Christians foolishly categorize the pre-wrath rapture as heretical even though it is the only systematic, exegetical teaching of the timing of Christ’s return I have seen beyond the proofs that His return is premillennial.
For those who insist on sticking with the failed theory of a pre-tribulational rapture, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I simply present the evidence so that whoever will receive it may receive it. For those who do not, God will show them in time, whether through wisdom, reproof, or (as a last resort) experience.
Do not fall into the deception that the west will never see persecution or trials, and that we will escape these things because Christ will return before things get too difficult. That is a lie from the pit to lull Christians to sleep. And many worldly and half-hearted “Christians” will be deceived by anti-Christs, false teachers, and false prophets (as Christ warned). Many will fall away, as the Bible teaches. There is be a great apostasy BEFORE the Day of the Lord.
Those who are truly His will eventually wake up. But the deception that leads believers to be unprepared for tribulation will be costly.
It’s a small craft Brewery in Magnolia, Texas. So, you may be able to find it in the Houston area.
Honestly...very unique IPA. Great flavor.
Speaking of Paul, he had something to say on this subject:
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Paul goes on to say that those that are preaching the necessity of circumcision and keeping the law ought to just go ahead and emasculate themselves .. so, there's a suggestion for you
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