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To: Mrs. Don-o

Talking in the presence of an angel is quite different than praying to an angel. Do you have scripture for the latter?

“If a person tried that with St. Michael the Archangel, be assured he would put a stop to it.”

Not his job to correct sins like this unless he is present and not correcting it would be considered accepting false worship.

As an example, multiple times in Scripture, Angels correct humans who fall down before them. They are told to rise.

Making graven images is idolatry. Bowing down before them is idolatry. Praying to them puts them in God’s place.

“Little children, keep yourself from idols.”

Apostle John


26 posted on 08/18/2016 8:47:43 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Mrs. Don-o
Talking in the presence of an angel is quite different than praying to an angel

Oh, OK.

So we're allowed to chat about the weather and the football results but I'm not allowed to ask him for a favor.

What are angels and what roles do they play in Scripture? One role, on which we can both agree (I think), is that they are messengers, right? They are sent by God with a message for one or more persons. See the angel Gabriel's message to Mary, for instance, or the angel which descended from heaven and sat upon Jesus' tombstone after the Resurrection and told Mary Magdalen and the other women that He was risen.

So if an angel can be sent by God to us, with a message, why can the reverse not happen? Why can we not send the angel to God with a message or request, from us?

Coz that's what we do when we pray!

27 posted on 08/18/2016 11:36:39 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Talking in the presence of an angel is quite different than praying to an angel.

You're creating an artificial distinction. The word "pray" is an archaic word meaning "to ask". (That's why you can "pray" to a judge for relief in court.)

In some languages, like German, the words for "pray" and "ask" are identical.

39 posted on 08/18/2016 3:42:15 PM PDT by Campion (Halten Sie sich unbedingt an die Lehre!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Campion
"Talking in the presence of an angel is quite different than praying to an angel."

This is a perfect example of what I mean about a divergence in definitions, which gets in the way of communication.

Talking with an angel is precisely prayer --- it is one of the MANY forms of mindfulness, honor, communication, interaction and contact which constitute part of our prayer life.

But it is not idolatry, because idolatry would involve giving to some created being the supreme adoration which is due to God alone; or adhering to an entity who is a rebel against, or a rival to, God.

The many intermediate forms of honor which we accord to our mothers, our fathers, our spouses, our patriot forebears or national founders, our military heroes, good people of all sorts, godly teachers, venerable grandparents, saints in this world and saints in the world to come, angels, etc. --- all in due measure --- are not occasions of rebellion against God or rivalry against God; but rather, these "intermediate honors" are pleasing to God, since He Himself is honored when we recognize the mighty works He has done in all of these His creatures.

He loves them. We love them, and Him.

That's why we pray to the good Angels: because we love them. And why? Because they love and serve God.

If you make an assumption that honor = worship, or prayer = worship, or veneration = worship, or kissing an object = worship, or bowing/curtseying/ formal forms of respect = worship, you're going to get the whole idea of this honor and love, completely wrong.

The difference in degree between veneration and adoration is not slight; it is not even merely 'great': it is infinite. And more: there is not just a difference in degree, but a difference in kind between the veneration of angels and saints, and the adoration of God.

We feel very free to give honor ---all in due measure --- to angels, because they are glorious servants of the Almighty.

I already mentioned that a keyword search at BibleGateway will revel dozens, if not hundreds, of instances of human persons interacting with angelic persons in a way that is pleasing to God. If you say you didn't find "prayer," it's only because your definition of "prayer" is, in this instance, too narrow. It is framed in such a way that it will exclude every example! You didn't know what you were looking for. Here are just a few of many prayer experiences:

Genesis 15: angel and Hagar

Genesis 19: angels and Lot

Genesis 22: angel and Abraham

Genesis 28, 31, 32: angels and Jacob

Here's a particularly good one, for which I provide two translations: Genesis 48:16

NASB
The angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads.

NCV
He was the Angel who saved me from all my troubles. Now I pray that he will bless these boys.

Jacob (Israel) prays to the Angel to protect and bless the boys --- Joseph's sons --- Ephraim and Manasseh. And notice that Joseph bows to the ground before Jacob (Israel.) Veneration. Not adoration.

There are dozens, scores of examples of all this in the OT, some in the NT, and it extends clear to the Book of Revelation, where it is revealed that it is the angels who offer to God the prayers of the faithful!

Revelation 8:3-4
And another angel came and stood at the altar,
having a golden censer;
and there was given unto him much incense,
that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints
upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

And the smoke of the incense,
which came with the prayers of the saints,
ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


53 posted on 08/18/2016 7:55:31 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Blessed be God in His angels and in His saints.")
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