Posted on 08/11/2016 9:06:49 PM PDT by UnChained
Beyond creeds.
All attempts to articulate the Triune Godhead that I have seen focus on inconsequentials. The nature of the Trinity is rather simple but I can't come up with a way to express it compactly so please bear with me.
You will acknowledge that God in His Omnipotence has the power to create a perfect copy of me, a color Xerox of me if you will. Such a copy might be so perfect that the copy would be convinced that he actually WAS me. My family couldn't tell the difference either because he would share every single attribute I possessed.; but he wouldn't truly BE me and I would rightly object to being killed to make room for him . Conversely, if my own attributes ever changed for some reason like due to having a stroke, and I even forgot the faces of my own children, wouldn't I still be me? I am a being and each being that exists has its own unique identity that is actually independent of whatever attributes are present or absent.
"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.". Genesis 1:1
This verse describes the creation of the the Earth, the cosmos, and the creation of the place we commonly call Heaven. When God created everything, He also created time and space. God therefore exists beyond time and space. Glimpses we get into the third Heaven in Revelation, reveal that there is some sort of dimensionality there but one cannot reach Heaven by physically traveling to it from Earth. In a sense, the realm that we call Heaven is sort of like a parallel universe. One wrinkle in that comparison is that the time in Heaven is apparently locked to the time here on Earth. Verses that describe reactions in Heaven to events on Earth indicate that the time is synchronized between Heaven and Earth.
I said all that to highlight that our existence here on Earth is spacial and temporal. The scriptures strongly imply that existence in Heaven is spacial and temporal too. Even though the Lord's Prayer includes the line "Our Father, Who art in Heaven...", the created realm that is Heaven, doesn't fully contain God. The Psalmist says that God has to bow down to even LOOK at Heaven. When Solomon was dedicating the Temple, he said to God "even the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain You.". This is all because God is beyond time and space.
However, in the incarnation, Jesus WAS contained by time and space here on the Earth; He wasn't omnipresent even though He saw Andrew from afar. And even though all power and authority was given to Jesus; He wasn't omnipotent. When Jesus said that only the Father knew the time of His coming, Jesus implied that He wasn't omniscient either. Detailed knowledge of the future apparently was the domain only of the Father who is beyond time.
We serve a living God, but what do we mean when we we say that God is alive? Isn't it that like us, God is a Being? Doesn’t even His Name "I AM" assert God's livingness as a being? We humans are alive as sentient beings. We are each a “Self Awareness” which is something alive that is superimposed upon our biological lives. This most important component of our "livingness" is this intangible thing that is looking out of our eyes. Indeed, that is how we humans were made by God "after His own Likeness." God is a living being and so are we. Another word used to denote our being is "soul". It is our soul that we hope will live again in the resurrection. But if God reassembles you again after you are fed through a wood chipper, will the resurrected you be the REAL you or merely a color Xerox of you?
Christians believe that God has the power to truly raise them from the dead. We therefore believe God has the power to manipulate individual souls, moving them through time and space, housing them and rehousing them as needed; Indeed, He demonstrated that power by placing His own Being, His "I AM", into a human body in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago and then subsequently dieing and rising again.
It is meaningless to talk about the dual natures of Christ when the important fact is that Jesus was/is the same being as the Father. Also whatever attributes were present or absent in the incarnation is of secondary relevance to the fact that Jesus was and is, the same I AM as the Father. God didn't create a new being for Jesus’ body like He did when He breathed life into Adam. In the incarnation of Jesus, God installed His own Being, His very Life into the Human body that was Jesus’. Just as when I begot my son by contributing my LIVING sperm that became a vital part of the LIVING cell that grew into my living son; so God begot Jesus by putting His own life, His very BEING into His Son’s body. Jesus and the Father aren't two persons. They are the SAME person if the word person means anything at all. Talk of the "same substance" or of "essences" doesn't convey the awesome reality of Jesus' oneness with the Father.
The questions that may still confound the reader are "If Jesus is the same Being / I AM / Person as the Father,
How can Jesus and the Father exist at the SAME time?" ( like at the baptism of Jesus )
How can Jesus be subordinate to the Father?"
How could Jesus pray to the Father and talk about Him in the third person?"
The answer to question number one is the key to it all.
IT ISN'T THE SAME TIME!!!"
The Father is the Great " I AM " who dwells OUTSIDE of time and space. In the incarnation, Jesus was the I AM of God dwelling WITHIN time and Space. There is no paradox or simultaneity conflict between the two realms. All of God’s attributes couldn’t fit in Jesus’ human body though, The Father / Son relationship is a result of the inevitable Greater to Lesser / Begetter to Begotten nature of the relationship. In brief, Jesus is the "I AM" of God within time and space, the Father is the "I AM" Who dwells beyond time and space. If the reader can get a handle on this, all of the scriptures that touch on this topic will fall into place.
Even Jesus' existence in Heaven was/is temporal. Whether you contend that Jesus had a beginning with the start of time in Heaven, or you say that Jesus existed from eternity past before the Creation, doesn't really change what makes Jesus one with the Father. Focusing on whether attributes are shared or not doesn't affect the awesome fact that our God so contrived reality that He could give up His life for us. Jesus wasn't some hapless third party that God punished on our behalf; Jesus was God Himself in the flesh!!
That fact is much more wondrous than anything you gain by adhering to the words of some mouldy creed.
I feel this is the answer to 2/3 of the Trinity mystery. Most discussions of the Trinity only speak of the Father and the Son. I cannot even begin to ponder the nature of the Holy Spirit's relationship within the Godhead however.
Exactly.
“The greatest book ever written on the Trinity:”
Thanks, I’ll check it out.
I'm curious. Do you complain about the "sterility" of the ultraprecise verbiage in the doctor's office?
When he blathers on about peptic ulcers or gastroenteritis do you insist on going right back to "my tummy hurts"?
Not only the greatest, but the only one that has a bellylaugh on almost every page.
You would think at some point folks would catch on that their premise is flat out wrong. Settled doctrine, settled doctrine... just have to keep it propped up, have to keep it going, have to find a way to make it work... otherwise the whole house of cards comes crashing down. Too many traditions are at stake.
Meanwhile,
Simple meanings = truth serum. Like Father like son. "I AM WHO I AM." Who is that? Exactly what is plain to see. There's no guile, subterfuge, duplicity, sketchy motives or other weird crafty business. What/who becomes visible under a microscope of study is the same substance and character as what is observable with the naked eye: one who is whole-hearted, sincere, loving, gracious, merciful, and judges righteous judgment.
God's word = truth = 100% reliable statements. At whatever point in human time He makes a promise, it is as good as if it already existed. Because it does - being as good as done. No that's too easy, better warp that simple concept into a "pre-incarnate" Christ. /s
Those who won't believe His word have to wait until they see it manifest in the physical world. Kind of like Belshazzar. By the time the hand showed up to SPELL IT OUT, it was too late. What was Daniel's "amazing" talent and insight? He was paying attention to what was going on with the attitudes and behavior of the king and his administration. Same with Joseph. How did he know how to interpret the dreams? He was paying attention. It's shown right there in the plain text, for anyone else who is interested in paying attention to the reality on the ground.
The cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 11 demonstrated proper eyesight.
Jesus was God Himself in the flesh!!
He shows up just being himself, a regular guy with his heart in the right place like his father David, designed to show anyone who wants to know, exactly how the Law is done by regular people like himself - his works bearing witness - and people end up thinking he is God. How if they just pay attention, take the lessons he lovingly demonstrated, and run with them. Somehow folks find it more valuable to get on a wordsmithing bandwagon to explain how the most humble man on the planet was running around trying to show people that he is God. Yikes.
And there you have it - why supposed followers don't and won't recognize him, or even know from which direction he is coming. The level of absurdity is off the charts here. He has to fit some pretty bizarre human expectations. The trouble is, he simply is who he is, just like his father David, who was a man after God's own heart.
This is playing out like the summer camp finale in the movie Addams' Family Values. "Gary's vision", burnt to the ground. Talk about an allegory.
Outcasts unite. The banishment to the Harmony Hut until they learned their lesson was the last straw.
Time is short.
Bookmark
“Here’s a novel Idea .... maybe Constantine, Alexander, Athanasius and Hosea got it wrong back in 325 AD!”
I’m pretty sure you meant this as an oblique criticism, but I agree. People have debated the topic for centuries, most will pick some statement of faith as their favorite. However, no such statement is the last word and embodies the Truth fully.
In particular, Constantine made it a capital offense to teach anything that smacked of the teachings of Arius. There is scant little of Arius’ teachings to be found as a result. Most assume the Arian Heresy asserted a lesser divinity for Jesus that was similar to Jehovah Witness Doctrine. But in a scrap of Arius’ writing it does seem that he noticed the significance of time in addressing the Father/Son mystery. Arius also firmly asserted the true divinity of Jesus in that scrap. He was groping towards an answer but was shouted down by the clamor that gave us the Nicean Creed.
The various Creeds served the Church well through history but were also the imperfect creations of men’s minds. Unfortunately, many people revere their favorite creed to be almost on the level of scripture and will argue down any contradiction of the creed as heretical.
And yes, I do believe they all got it wrong. Maybe I need to be executed for heresy.
“I’ve read something similar before...”
If you recall where and what it was, please email me. I’ve searched extensively for “prior art” without success. I’m uncomfortable trying to sell an idea that I was the first to think of.
“My response is to prefer the moldy and ancient creed from 300 A.D. “God from God. Light from Light.”
Yes, what I wrote isn’t poetic or pretty or pithy. I also neglected to include much in the way of extolling the Father and the Son. I chose only to address the core of the Trinity mystery, a mystery that only persists because of a lack of understanding on our part.
I’ll leave it to someone else to compose something with grand wording.
Thanks for your response, but I was hoping someone here would “get it” and come up with a more elegant way to express it than what I offered. By “it” I mean that this post represents a momentous improvement in our understanding of the Trinity.
I don’t mean to be cruel, but it’s as if I’ve found a simple way to achieve cold fusion and people respond with:
“That’s nice, but you know what I like doing for energy? First, I built a really big hamster wheel and then I put a goat in it...”
I am pretty sure you couldn’t convict me of heresy by using only the scriptures.
I know that what I wrote contradicts several creeds. Those creeds are deeply flawed and needed to be contradicted.
And again . . . merely jettisoning the “new testament” would solve so many problems.
“God exists in three distinct persons, not states. The example you suggested is classic “modalism” or “Sabellianism.”
Thanks for jumping in.
About half the analogies people offered here are examples of modalism.
You may have noticed that I tried to make the case that the “distinct persons” explanation is flawed also. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.
Then it's likely your thoughts on the Father and the Son are also equally incomplete.
You're on your way to that understanding, but this is one journey that requires His Holy Help.
From what I've read, the Holy Spirit, Himself, will eventually come to you, if you do what is required to allow Him to and to make Him welcome.
If so, He will teach you. He will offer you the instruction and insights you need, but currently don't have.
Give a kid a cookie. Divide it into three and tell him he's got three cookies. Kids would be onto that scam lickety-split. Adults, well they've got their trinity cookie. It can do the most... unnatural things. Because the adults say so.
Meanwhile, over in the kiddie play corner...the children recognize that
The Messiah *is* the Law: the embodiment of it. He just does it. It's his character, his very identity: it is simply WHO HE IS. He has compassion on people and just wants to heal them. Loving, conscientious, pays close attention. Really into his work. Driven to get things just right. He desires to rectify what doesn't work right, to put everything in proper order, because it is the only way. Like father like son. This guy cares. He loves the kids. He is not interested in tricking them. He has the work ethic and sincerity and love all can see and emulate if they so choose.
And every kid knows, "You don't mess with the Law." Oh, they'll test the authority and probe for the boundaries, but they learn which adult deserves their respect, and which to put on "ignore". The ones telling them that the peel is a whole apple, are going to ever wonder why those insolent kids won't mind them. And when those adults become teachers, there's already a saying for them: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
Simple folks can discern that the most humble man on the face of the earth isn't the one going around showing people that he is God. The one who desires to play up to expectations, though... yeah, he'll do exactly that. Give them what they want. Let the market decide.
Eh, what is so complicated? Every day life bears witness to simple truths.
Yet there are these complex, mysterious doctrines. One can study the dogmas in great detail until the cows come home and never learn a thing. Or he can pay attention to what the Redeemer is DOing, which shows where his heart is, and what the results of the outworking of that heart are, and go do that, basking in all that light. The joy of simplicity. People can get pretty motivated when they realize that something isn't so hard after all.
The Wile E. Coyotes of this world are doomed to get what is owed to them, by the works of their own hands (or lack thereof). Pharaoh's death decree to Hebrew infants is what put Moses in the basket, causing him to be picked up and raised in pharaoh's own house, right under his nose. And even better, Moses' mother was paid by the palace to nurse her own son. Excellent! Moses ended up educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. Inside track. See, if the pharaoh had known what he were really doing, he wouldn't have done that. Then there was Haman, who was determined to build his own gallows.
Those guys should have been paying attention.
Looney Tunes. Road Runner. The obvious child-like simplicity of the whole thing is going to offend the learned. Heads will explode but what to do. All that "knowledge and understanding", all that dedication to proving that which isn't so - *poof*. Worthless.
Gotta laugh.Well, not like it wasn't in the Book all along.
In Isaac shall Abraham's seed be called.
Isaac = "he laughs"
Heh, what's in a name?
I EXPECT that I might be allowed to understand some day if I get to heaven. If not, then that's God's plan and I am content with His plan. Why wouldn't I be?
bkmk
What you said.
Unfortunately, we are attempting to understand something that is beyond the capacity of the levels of human that we are most aware of and use to understand the world around us.
Consider that our brains are subdivided into various parts and structures and that each gives humans capabilities that animals whose brains do not have these parts naturally do not have.
It is possible that the human brain doesn't contain the part(s) that would give us the capability and capacity to understand the Holy Trinity.
Otoh, it is also possible that we humans have all the parts we need to understand the All, everything except for the 'juice' to power it up, that is.
Or, it's also possible that the parts are all there and it's got power, but we humans haven't figured out how to turn it on.
Or, it is also likely that we have all we need and it's all powered up all the time, just waiting to be used.
Because, it's very possible, in a Proverbs 11:14 kinda way, that we are clueless, and so distracted and upset with things while looking left and right, that our inner interference is so bad that we think those parts are broken or simply not there.
As such, for many God exists, but isn't "there" for them personally,
And for many others, the Holy Trinity just simply doesn't exist at all, other than maybe as fantasy fiction.
I believe the last possibility, the clueless, distracted and upset possibility, is the truth of our "truth".
None the less, we often say of our human selves that we are "body, mind and spirit", and this seems a good human translation of our being created in Their Image.
Here is were I had to look elsewhere for some additional info to interlace the pieces I've found into a complete (for me, anyway) picture.
It's hard to put into words or to find a good metaphor or analogy to picture it with.
In a way, the human being that God created in Their Image is kinda like a seven section, two-way "rain chain" that is connected to earth on one end and Heaven on the other.
Rain flows top down with a rain chain, so the analogy isn't perfect, as communication flows up, down and in between Heaven and the levels of the human hiearchy.
For most of us, and certainly this is true for me, our consciousness and awareness for the most part exist in the lower 3 levels: the physical level, the emotional level and the mental level, from lowest to highest, with the physical level, the existing at the lowest frequency, connected to the physical plane of our existence.
To illustrate this multi-leveled concept, we say it's "my body" or "my emotions" or "my mind" indicating that some part of our being recognizes and understands that there are separate parts and each is distinguishable from the others.
Moreover, we realize through experience that each of these levels influences the others, but that they each have their functions and their level/place within the hierarchy.
However, there are four additional levels of the human hierarchy that many, or even most of us, are not aware of in our day to day consciousness.
The next highest level above the mental level, the 4th level of the human hierarchy, is the intuition.
The level of intuition is also called the "intuitive bridge", as it is situated between the lowest three levels and the highest three levels of the human hierarchy where it functions as the bridge between the upper three levels and the lower three levels of our being.
Conceptually, I like to think of the intuition as being like the area between/connecting air and water. The intuitive level is the space between that connects two different states of our being.
The upper three levels of the human hierarchy, the spiritual levels, are of a much higher frequency of being than that of our lower three, and naturally they are completely different aspects our being.
"God is Love."
Our upper inner three levels are levels of "Love" connecting us to Heaven, and like with the physical, emotional and mental levels, each are separate and distinct parts of our being.
One level is "Agape", but I don't remember the names for the other two levels or where each of the three are in the human hierarchy.
The intuitive level between the upper and the lower, the "intuitive bridge", allows the conversation between the two different states of our being the upper level and the lower.
Many have a well-developed intuition. Others deny the intuition even exists. I believe it is by the "intuitive bridge" that we are aware of the "still, small voice" coming down to us in the physical plane from Heaven above.
Unfortunately, this area is where the undisciplined ego likes to hang out. If the ego is unhealthy, and has taken over instead of being a servant doing its job, it becomes like a bridge troll, turning the intuitive bridge into it's very own troll bridge, and claiming, influencing or denying all traffic that normally passes over the bridge between the upper and lower.
Naturally, for this reason, the ego is the FAVORITE target of Satan and turning the ego into a troll is likely his favorite pastime.
Convince the ego to cut off communications to/from up above and the human will eventually die of starvation or commit some form of suicide in the valley of death.
This is my attempt to understand things so far and is a work in progress.
You might think all of the above is something heretic, and for many people it might be, I really don't know.
Actually, IIRC, the above 7 level description/understanding is Hermetic, not heretic, but whatever.
Whatever one calls it, for me, it is descriptive, and thus helpful for my understanding both the Trinity and we, the created in Their Image, human beings.
The mental level is higher in the hierarchy than the physical and the emotional levels and it is designed and placed to rule over them.
If one is disciplined, the mental level can and will do what it's told, and then it and the emotional and physical levels will all go where the mental is focused.
If one sets one's mind on the higher things of Heaven, the "God is LOVE" stuff of our higher three inner levels, then the lower three levels will become quiet and all will align and harmonize with the higher thoughts.
We are then living "in the zone" and the result is like the beautiful music of well-harmonized chord, with all notes in tune and played in harmony.
For this reason, we practice, practice, practice the notes and patterns of His Teachings and the music of His Way, so that the intuitive bridge becomes like a two-way mirror where we no longer see our own image, but instead we "see" Him and He sees His Own Image in us reflected back.
If not, then the notes and chords played are out of tune and discordant, and generally destructive to the patterns and music of that person's life and purpose.
In those situations, the intuitive bridge is probably functioning instead as the ego's mirror and that's why we seem so full of ourselves in those times.
No surprise that the ego wants to like it that way, but that's not what it's designed for and it can't be satisfied by being in charge.
Satan keeps that part a secret, but it's not like the ego would believe it anyway.
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