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To: hlmencken3
I have no idea what your original point was, but thanks anyway. Shabbat Shalom.

Mu original point was that my answer Post #128 to your Post #116 shows that the sayings of Jesus re jots and tittles contradict the concept that there was no indication of vowel sounds prior to the Masoretes, to whon some theorists attribute the vowel pointing employed by Ben Asher in his preparation of codices of the Old Testament.

I included Psalm 119 to show that the letter identified as jodh was present in the Psalms, long before Jesus' mention of it as the least of the consonants.

I'm sorry that I did not make that clear enough that you could follow the purpose of arguing against a late introduction of vowel pointing as a reading aid. Which, of course, either Jesus understood, or that someone gratuitously added these verses centuries later.

144 posted on 07/22/2016 3:00:04 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1; hlmencken3

The books that would be put together from various sources into the first New Testament were decided upon in Roman councils a little before and after the year, 400, but that collection of books was quite different from the collections of the 1500s and 1600s. Many different translations have been made since. Most old testaments were originally made from the Septuagint by Hellenized scribes under an Egyptian King (Macedonian Empire)—quite different from the unchanging Torah.

Jots and tittles go back to Old English and German. Before that, iota in the Latin and Greek—not very old (jot, probably really gathered from yod in the Hebrew alephbet rather than vowel marks).

Written Hebrew goes back at least around 3500 years, probably much longer, before the proto-Sinaitic. It might have spawned an earlier cuneiform far to the east-northeast.

Vowel marks weren’t added until the 700s. Before vowel marks, only those very thoroughly educated in proper pronunciations, Torah and Oral Law could read Torah (and to this day for Jewish experts reading from Torah scrolls). Contemporary Hebrew also does not have vowel marks, but most contemporary readers are practiced in reading with proper contemporary pronunciation and context.


147 posted on 07/22/2016 5:56:04 PM PDT by familyop ("Welcome to Costco. I love you." --Costco greeter in the movie, "Idiocracy")
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To: imardmd1; metmom; boatbums; knarf; Elsie; ealgeone; Gamecock
RDMD1, I am not as educated as you. 😀 I had heard the word Talmud before, but I had to look it up. I guess it means the traditions of thousands of rabbis. I suspect there are many things of value in it, for living a better life. On the other hand, I totally, completely, absolutely reject it, as being inspired by God. Now, we all know that Jesus of Nazareth is God in human form. It is my opinion that He will either save people from the lake of fire, or put them in it.
I think Jesus of Nazareth rejected it, not because there is no good in it, but because there is no good in it that can please God. No one lives up to it. Jesus himself said in Matthew 15:8-9, This people honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me but in vain do they worship me. teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men. I wonder if Jesus of Nazareth has the same opinion of these present day Pharisees, that He had of the Pharisees of His day? I think He was always angry with them, and called them hypocrites and snakes. Not exactly nice terms.
I have never seen the Nazi word thrown around, as much as I have seen it used on this thread. Frankly, it's garbage, and once they use it, they forfeit any chance of being taken seriously.
All we can do, is expose them to Jesus of Nazareth, just like they think they are exposing us to Pharisaic doctrine. Unfortunately, most of them, just like most of the world, will stand before Jesus, as their judge. I think He will be a tad bit angry with them, but that's on them. I am sorry for that, but it doesn't have to be that way.
148 posted on 07/22/2016 5:59:52 PM PDT by Mark17 (The love of God, how rich and pure, how measureless and strong. It shall forevermore endure.)
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To: imardmd1; hlmencken3
I would add that when Jesus was in the synagogue in Nazareth, he read in Hebrew that passage from Isaiah as recorded in Luke 7:16-22

    He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

    “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

    All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips.

Jesus read the scroll in Hebrew and his words were recorded in Greek, so those "questionable" vowels must have already been resolved and people knew what the Scripture said.

151 posted on 07/22/2016 8:32:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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