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To: daniel1212
I think you understood my point and your rebuttal is specious or illogical at best.

>>>"The Church doesn’t decide what its members truly believe.."

The Church teaches doctrine - which is not determined by poll. Or is it in your church? This is a really obvious error in your logic. Does your denomination have a Confession, a Statement of Principles, or What We Believe? Or do you take a survey to determine what it will teach?

What is your church's confession? How was it determined?

St. Paul did not survey those in the Church at Corinth and teach them the results. No, he rebuked their divisions and heretical beliefs. ("For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you..")

And then he taught them right doctrine, including discerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist.

122 posted on 07/13/2016 6:51:57 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
I think you understood my point and your rebuttal is specious or illogical at best.

Which, as obvious an usual, is what applies to you "rebuttal."

The Church teaches doctrine - which is not determined by poll.

Dude, the issue was what Catholics believe, as that was what your argument was about, but what Rome teaches simply does not necessarily translate into what RCs personally believe, and which is what polls reveal. Thus your rebuttal is specious or illogical. Do you understand that?

What is your church's confession? How was it determined?

Any church confession must be based on the weight of Scriptural warrant, however, unlike you, i am, not defending a particular church, but a common faith shared by many churches.

St. Paul did not survey those in the Church at Corinth and teach them the results. No, he rebuked their divisions and heretical beliefs. ("For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you..")

And then he taught them right doctrine, including discerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. WRONG, and once again you skew reality! Paul here actually sanctioned divisions (For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. - 1 Corinthians 11:19), for the word for heresies simply means "sects," as in sects of the Pharisees which Paul states he was part of, (Acts 26:5) and the NT church was actually called a sect, (Acts 24:14; 28:22) and which word can be distinguished as being in the negative sense by the context and or the word "damnable." (Gal. 5:20; 2Pt. 2:1)

And rather than teaching discerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, as in "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body," (1 Corinthians 11:29) instead (as heretofore explained) Paul is contextual referring to not recognizing church as being the Lord's body by treating members of it as if they were lepers, which is what he is reproving.

For proceeding from v. 19 above,

When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. (1 Corinthians 11:20-22)

By eating independently and even to the full (the Lord's supper was not that of eating a wafer of bread) while ignoring others then they were despising ye the church of God, which body Paul said Christ purchased with His own sinless shed blood, (Acts 20:28) and was very passionate about, and which theme continues into the next chapter (1Co. 12).

Paul thus reiterates the Lord's words at the last supper, the interpretation of which is the issue, but Paul does not states that when they consume the elements then they were actually consuming Christ, but that "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew[proclaim] the Lord's death till he come," (1 Corinthians 11:26)

Thus the purpose was to commemorative, remembering=showing the Lord's death for the church by sharing food with each other in that feast of charity, and since some were not doing so then Paul states that they were not actually coming together to eat the Lord's supper, but instead they were eating this bread and drinking the cup of the Lord unworthily, as by his previous censure, that of eating independently, while ignoring others, even to the "shame of them that have not." It is thus this despising of the Lord's body, the church that Paul refers to as "not discerning the Lord's body," not some failure to discern the nature of the elements, and thus the solution is not that of recognizing the nature of the elements consumed, but to correct this failure of recognizing the church was being the body for which Christ died:

Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. (1 Corinthians 11:33) And also to eat at home if hungry so that one be not moved by lust for food and eat independently while ignoring others.

That this is what Paul by the Spirit is censuring is even confirmed by the notes in your own NAB Bible:

[11:27] It follows that the only proper way to celebrate the Eucharist is one that corresponds to Jesus’ intention, which fits with the meaning of his command to reproduce his action in the proper spirit. If the Corinthians eat and drink unworthily, i.e., without having grasped and internalized the meaning of his death for them, they will have to answer for the body and blood, i.e., will be guilty of a sin against the Lord himself (cf. 1 Cor 8:12).

* [11:28] Examine himself: the Greek word is similar to that for “approved” in 1 Cor 11:19, which means “having been tested and found true.” The self-testing required for proper eating involves discerning the body (1 Cor 11:29), which, from the context, must mean understanding the sense of Jesus’ death (1 Cor 11:26), perceiving the imperative to unity that follows from the fact that Jesus gives himself to all and requires us to repeat his sacrifice in the same spirit (1 Cor 11:18–25). - http://usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/11

Regardless, like as homosexuals read homosexuality into any description of close friendships, so Catholics ignore context in order to force Scripture to say what they want.

126 posted on 07/14/2016 6:02:20 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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