Posted on 05/25/2016 3:19:08 PM PDT by ebb tide
Yes, it does. I would respect their position much more if they would at least recognize that. I mean if they are allowed to resist the teachings of a true pope on faith and morals and remain Catholic, then go all out.
However, there are things in Vatican II that contradict the universal ordinary magisterium (religious freedom, ecumenism, etc).
And yet Paul VI tells us we must assent to it.
When someone says this is a non-issue it reminds me of those three monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil (ie. turning a blind eye). It appears that at least you are not doing this.
“Magisterium infallible ... extraordinary and universal ordinary magisterium ...”
I agree that the the magisterium is infallible in its extraordinary and universal ordinary manifestations. I referred to “gobbledygook” because it is only since the late 1800’s that we even had to define these nuances and it can seem as though we are at the proverbial point of defining what the meaning if “is” is.
Truth is not obscure and the magisterium is the magisterium.
The issue at hand is that the Church is indefectible and apostolic and we were told this by Christ Himself.
Therefore, how do we reconcile the fact that there is almost certainly heresy contained within the Vatican II documents and accepted and enabled by the succeeding Popes and Paul VI?
Is the Chair Vacant which means the Church will become and is even now in the process of becoming defectible once the apostolic succession fades when valid Bishops die out as happened to the Church of England and rendering the sacraments ultimately invalid?
An acceptance of that position leads to a defectible Church.
The other position is also very problematic. i.e., the Chair is not vacant but headed by a heretic which is not possible because a formal heretic Pope is de facto “not” (anti) Pope by nature of his heresy.
This is why I invoked Our Lady undoer of knots.
It is a difficult dilemma and the supreme enemy of the Church and Christ is the one who has wrought this confusion.
That in a nutshell causes one to wonder if we are in the end times, but I am not a millenialist type and they have been around and wrong since day one and the Church has pulled out of it, but this one is a real dilemma. Of course the Trinity and Our Lady will prevail and crush the serpent, but ...
Time will tell us in the end, and our trust in the Lord’s promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail. We are in dark times, that is for sure.
Those who live in glass houses...
How ironic that members of one of the smaller breakaway factions have taken to referring to the Church as a "cult." :)
Suggested reading:
It’s Not About You: A Meditation on the Abrupt End of the Acts of the Apostles
You’re right this isn’t about me..and I never said it was. I expressed an opinion about your position...something posters do quite often regarding opposing opinions on forums such as these in case you haven’t noticed. Let’s not make this personal.
You might find this interesting:
http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/Resist-Indefect-P.pdf
Nothing "personal" here, except the sedevacantist presumption to private, "personal" judgment, i.e. their unilateral, sweeping excommunication and contemptuous mockery of those who remain in the Church. Not a winning formula for recruitment.
Really now? Could have fooled me. You highlighted "I" in my post and then proceeded to tell me that "it's not about me" (albeit via another man's sermon). I have not mocked anyone who call themselves Catholic here. In fact, I try very hard to give all Catholics the benefit of the doubt given the mess we are all in these days. I haven't told anyone here they are not Catholic.
On the contrary, a number of non-sedes have used their private judgment to judge that I and other sedevacantists are not Catholic and are out of the Church. However, in my travels in a number of trad forums, I know that most non-sedes recognize that they could be wrong and do not judge sedes in this way.
I happen to think that most of the Catholic posters here (and other forums) are of good will even if I think they are wrong in their position.
Please understand that, in response to your post #41, I was merely pointing out that whether or not you (or anyone else, for that matter) "respects" the points made by other posters is hardly apropos to a factual discussion regarding Church doctrine.
On the contrary, a number of non-sedes have used their private judgment to judge that I and other sedevacantists are not Catholic and are out of the Church.
"Private judgment" has no bearing on the matter. It is the sedevacantists themselves who publicly reject the post-1958 Church. And it is they who publish books and blogs referring to those who remain in the Church post-Vatican II as "catholics" with a small "c", "popes", etc. and host radio shows featuring snarky clerics cackling mockingly at those who remain in the Church. Anyone who spends a minimal amount of time perusing sedevacantist media can see this for themselves. It comes off as very disingenuous to identify as a sedevacantist while making the claim that sedevantists don't judge, when their media openly judges and ridicules faithful Catholics (including faithful, holy priests) who remain on the Ark. The facts speak for themselves.
Pius, we have wildly digressed from the OP. Would not want to irritate the "Bear". Time to agree to disagree.
Pax.
I am certainly not going to just "agree to disagree" with you that I am not Catholic. By telling me that in so many words, you have made it personal whether you wish to admit it or not.
The dogmatic sedevacantists are wrong (those who believe that non-sedes are not Catholic). And those of you who are dogmatic sedeplenists (those who believe sedes are non-Catholic) are equally as wrong. Based on your posts you appear to be a dogmatic sedeplenist.
Pope Pius XI: Mortalium Animos
"...And in what manner, We ask, can men who follow contrary opinions, belong to one and the same Federation of the faithful? For example, those who affirm, and those who deny that sacred Tradition is a true fount of divine Revelation; those who hold that an ecclesiastical hierarchy, made up of bishops, priests and ministers, has been divinely constituted, and those who assert that it has been brought in little by little in accordance with the conditions of the time...
...For the teaching authority of the Church, which in the divine wisdom was constituted on earth in order that revealed doctrines might remain intact for ever, and that they might be brought with ease and security to the knowledge of men, and which is daily exercised through the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops who are in communion with him, has also the office of defining, when it sees fit, any truth with solemn rites and decrees, whenever this is necessary either to oppose the errors or the attacks of heretics, or more clearly and in greater detail to stamp the minds of the faithful with the articles of sacred doctrine which have been explained. But in the use of this extraordinary teaching authority no newly invented matter is brought in, nor is anything new added to the number of those truths which are at least implicitly contained in the deposit of Revelation, divinely handed down to the Church: only those which are made clear which perhaps may still seem obscure to some, or that which some have previously called into question is declared to be of faith...
...During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]...
...11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors...
St. Thomas Aquinas:
"It is also shown that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is necessary for salvation. For Cyril says in his Thesaurus: "Therefore, brethren, if we imitate Christ so as to hear his voice remaining in the Church of Peter and so as not be puffed up by the wind of pride, lest perhaps because of our quarrelling the wily serpent drive us from paradise as once he did Eve." And Maximus in the letter addressed to the Orientals [Greeks] says: "The Church united and established upon the rock of Peter's confession we call according to the decree of the Savior the universal Church, wherein we must remain for the salvation of our souls and wherein loyal to his faith and confession we must obey him."
(Against the Errors of the Greeks, Pt. 2, ch. 36)
Let’s Raise a Glass to the Bad Popes!
"It may seem odd, on the feast day of the Roman Fact, to discuss the less-than-stellar occupants of the Chair of Peter. I would propose that it is precisely these weak and sometimes sordid men who offer one of the most startling historical and apologetical claims for the indefectibility of the church. Catholics ought not to be reticent or ashamed about such men. A frank analysis of their weaknesses shows that often the Church survives in spite of the papacy, while the office endures as a witness to the seamless garment of Church tradition.
The demerits of some of the popes can be broken down into three categories: the inept, the imprudent, and the immoral. It is astonishing among the 265 holders of the office that so few can be charged with any of these (indeed around a third of all popes are recognized as saints). Nonetheless they are to be found; weaklings who refused to teach when teaching was necessary, spectacularly imprudent miscalculators, and downright seedy and Augean characters..."
Well if we’re going to talk about objective realities, those of you who reject the Vicar of Christ’s magisterium (Vatican II), discipline (1983 Code of Canon Law) and liturgy (the Novus Ordo) are schismatic.
Pardon me for observing, Pius, but how in the world are statements like “you have no credibility” and “you appear to be a dogmatic sedeplenist” NOT personal?
Well if one parses words, then sure it can all sound personal. The complete sentence was “if you do XYZ, then you have no credibility”. In addition, I said one “appears to be” which is not the same thing as saying one “is”.
Of course when others tend to make things personal it does make it even harder for the receiving poster to remain objective in his/her posts. Perhaps if others would refrain from judging fellow Catholics as non-Catholic or not remaining on the Ark given the unprecedented Crisis in the Church these days, it would help the overall productivity and tenor of the discussion.
If we want to talk about parsing words...saying that "Blather doing what he does means he has no credibility" is not really a tremendous improvement on simply saying "Blather has no crediblity." xD
Of course when others tend to make things personal it does make it even harder for the receiving poster to remain objective in his/her posts. Perhaps if others would refrain from judging fellow Catholics as non-Catholic or not remaining on the Ark given the unprecedented Crisis in the Church these days, it would help the overall productivity and tenor of the discussion.
Well, from the perspective of both me and Blathernaut, sedevacantists are NOT in the Church, as they reject the legitimacy of validly elected Popes. It would be rather disingenuous for us to pretend that we thought the circumstances were otherwise.
So you both judge that we aren’t in the Church. It’s interesting how it’s easy for you to come to that conclusion but not to the conclusion that Francis is not in the Church ....when we actually profess the Catholic Faith and he does not.
Anyway, I am tired of arguing. The Devil must love what he’s accomplished between the various groups of trads. The fact that there is no unity among the trads is just more proof that there is no pope.
As far as whether I am in the Church, I’ll leave that for God to judge. Heck, if the Vatican II Church is the true Church and Francis is the true pope then I really don’t have anything to worry about given they both teach that other churches are means of salvation.
His errors are myriad, but the sedevancantists make one specific error that separates them from Rome. That is the fundamental difference. It's not that sedevacantists make more theological errors than the Pope---it's that they make one particular error that on its own severs ties with the line of Peter.
True. Those who recognize the current Pope's contempt for the Deposit of Faith are justifiably scandalized. The extremeness of his behavior makes it tempting to want to escape his orbit by denying his legitimacy; however he sits on Peter's throne due to God's permissive will. We need to pray for Francis (along with his partners in chaos). "And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints." (Rom 8:28)
I would argue that the sedevacantist error (if they are even in error which I obviously would say they are not) is not one that severs them with the Church. It would be an error of fact. At best we would be guilty of making a sincere mistake as to the identity of the true pope.
I don’t think anyone can know for sure how God will judge those of us who have tried to remain faithful to the best of our ability in these unprecedented trying times.
God Bless.
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