It is, despite your reflexive denials.
It absolutely is not despite your reflexive assertion to the contrary. Prayers to the saints and martyrs or any created beings are NOWHERE recorded on the pages of Scripture, which is the uniquely wholly inspired substantive body of Truth that the church doctrinally and prophetically (OT) began under, and added to, and which wholly inspired-of-God is the judge of various practices such as the Catacombs example.
Both the Orthodox and Roman churches concur this is an ancient and widespread practice. Which means that are wrong, as they are in a multitude of other things that the NT church did not manifestly believe .
) Your appeal to the OT misses the mark. Intercessory prayer proceeds from the belief that within the Body of Christ (the Church) there are some who are present with Jesus Christ in the Heavenly realm. That was not true during OT days.
Wrong. Intercessory prayer includes prayers to angels, as well as to Elijah and Enoch, but prayer to which the Holy Spirit nowhere records or sanctions by believers. Nor teaches that they are able to constantly hear all the prayers directed to them, which is a privilege and power only God is shown to have, which two-way communication between created beings required both to somehow be in the same realm, and was personal, oral and by visible heavenly beings.
. Some of the earliest known examples of intercessory prayer were to the martyred apostles.
Wrong, as your source is not that of the only wholly inspired substantive body of Truth, but it that of uninspired tradition and Catholic teaching, by which errors are perpetuated.
Hebrews was one of the last books of the NT to gain universal acceptance. It's authenticity was dispute into the 4th Century. By that point in time, intercessory prayer was already an established (and seemingly non-disputed) practice.
Irrelevant. Both men and writings of God are what they are regardless of the recognition or non-recognition by men. The words of God are the standard even before men recognize them. But OT itself provides for common soul recognizing both men and writings of God are being so, even in dissent from the magisterium, and thus it provides for a canon.
No one around 300 A.D. was apt to look at Hebrews and find your "argument from silence." You again miss the mark.
Irrelevant, for as is abundantly evidenced, they did look to what was written as the standard for obedience and testing truth claims, and oral preaching was established upon Scriptural substantiation, and nothing that was recognized as Scripture or would be testifies to or teaches prayer to created beings in Heaven.Which is inexplicable in the light of prayer being a most fundamental practice, and with prayer to created beings in Heaven being so greatly depended upon by Catholics.
Nor is my argument only based on silence where there should be revelation, as it also rests upon who Scripture teaches we are to prayer to (not such as "our mother who are in Heaven")./i>
You again miss the mark.
Upthread, St. Ephraim the Syrian...does speak on the present topic...intercede for us
Pious (I assume) Ephraim the Syrian was in error, as are all who do what no believer in Scripture manifestly did.
Well, duh, since there were no persons in heaven during the OT period, and since the Apostles writing the NT books had, in the main, yet to die or be martyred, it's not a practice necessarily expected to be found in the Scriptures.
Which means that are wrong,
Rather, I think the fact that intercessory prayer was practiced among the churches known to have had succession of teachers going back to their Apostolic foundation is STRONG evidence of its propriety.
Intercessory prayer includes prayers to angels, as well as to Elijah and Enoch, but prayer to which the Holy Spirit nowhere records or sanctions by believers.
Well, it's good you brought up angels, as Scripture does record the intercession of angels in receiving prayers and placing them before the Lord. Tobit 12:12. Oh, wait, I can hear it already. You don't think the church of the first centuries knew what books were Scripture either.
Wrong, as your source is not that of the only wholly inspired substantive body of Truth, but it that of uninspired tradition and Catholic teaching,
My source is the church founded by Jesus Christ, which he commissioned to go and teach throughout the world, and which He promised the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth. When that church in the world agrees that the practice of intercessory prayer is right and good, then I have a Divine source teaching me.
**No one around 300 A.D. was apt to look at Hebrews and find your "argument from silence." You again miss the mark.**
Irrelevant,
It's very relevant as you're trying to build your "argument from silence" off a book that then didn't then have universal recognition. Your historical illiteracy is tripping you up.
for as is abundantly evidenced, they did look to what was written as the standard for obedience and testing truth claims, and oral preaching was established upon Scriptural substantiation,
Great. So then we know that when it came to intercessory prayer they either 1) found Scriptural sanction directly (e.g., Tobit) or indirectly (e.g., the teaching on the Body of Christ) or 2) founded it on oral tradition passed on from the Apostles. I'm good either way. :)
What we do know is this generation of Christians -- upon whose determinations we rely as to the scope of the NT canon (including you, whether you admit it or not) -- found the practice salutary and unobjectionable.
Nor is my argument only based on silence where there should be revelation,
Here's where your argument collapses, as it is very much the argument from silence I've been calling it.
The Apostles lived within the NT communities for years at a time. Yet, Scripture records virtually nothing of their prayer life or how they lived and reacted within those communities. Much of the NT (esp. Paul's letters) were written AFTER he had moved on in order to address various issues that had arisen since his departure. You're noting that the NT books don't explicitly record an illustration of intercessory prayer, but they don't much record the private prayer of ANYONE. Apart from Jesus's words in Gethsemene, we lack much of a description of the words and actions used in private prayer. And general descriptions exhorting people to pray "to God" don't provide an answer for you, as intercessory prayer is still "to God" as the object of receipt.
Prayers to the saints and martyrs or any created beings are NOWHERE recorded on the pages of Scripture,
Well, duh, since there were no persons in heaven during the OT period, and since the Apostles writing the NT books had, in the main, yet to die or be martyred, it's not a practice necessarily expected to be found in the Scriptures.
Which means that are wrong,
Rather, I think the fact that intercessory prayer was practiced among the churches known to have had succession of teachers going back to their Apostolic foundation is STRONG evidence of its propriety.
Intercessory prayer includes prayers to angels, as well as to Elijah and Enoch, but prayer to which the Holy Spirit nowhere records or sanctions by believers.
Well, it's good you brought up angels, as Scripture does record the intercession of angels in receiving prayers and placing them before the Lord. Tobit 12:12. Oh, wait, I can hear it already. You don't think the church of the first centuries knew what books were Scripture either.
Wrong, as your source is not that of the only wholly inspired substantive body of Truth, but it that of uninspired tradition and Catholic teaching,
My source is the church founded by Jesus Christ, which he commissioned to go and teach throughout the world, and which He promised the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth. When that church in the world agrees that the practice of intercessory prayer is right and good, then I have a Divine source teaching me.
**No one around 300 A.D. was apt to look at Hebrews and find your "argument from silence." You again miss the mark.**
Irrelevant,
It's very relevant as you're trying to build your "argument from silence" off a book that then didn't then have universal recognition. Your historical illiteracy is tripping you up.
for as is abundantly evidenced, they did look to what was written as the standard for obedience and testing truth claims, and oral preaching was established upon Scriptural substantiation,
Great. So then we know that when it came to intercessory prayer they either 1) found Scriptural sanction directly (e.g., Tobit) or indirectly (e.g., the teaching on the Body of Christ) or 2) founded it on oral tradition passed on from the Apostles. I'm good either way. :)
What we do know is this generation of Christians -- upon whose determinations we rely as to the scope of the NT canon (including you, whether you admit it or not) -- found the practice salutary and unobjectionable.
Nor is my argument only based on silence where there should be revelation,
Here's where your argument collapses, as it is very much the argument from silence I've been calling it.
The Apostles lived within the NT communities for years at a time. Yet, Scripture records virtually nothing of their prayer life or how they lived and reacted within those communities. Much of the NT (esp. Paul's letters) were written AFTER he had moved on in order to address various issues that had arisen since his departure. You're noting that the NT books don't explicitly record an illustration of intercessory prayer, but they don't much record the private prayer of ANYONE. Apart from Jesus's words in Gethsemene, we lack much of a description of the words and actions used in private prayer. And general descriptions exhorting people to pray "to God" don't provide an answer for you, as intercessory prayer is still "to God" as the object of receipt.