Posted on 04/15/2016 7:25:23 AM PDT by verga
“Kolokotronis, you papist you!”
Alas and alack! My papou must be spinning in his grave! /s
Try using the force, Luke. You’re making too many assumptions of late. I was getting ‘upbraided’ by Kolo years ago. He enjoyed jumping down my throat when I posted a German sentence in which I did not capitalize the first letter of proper nouns.
“Wow. Mariolatry 101.”
It is hard for Anglophones to appreciate the difference between veneration and worship. It’s easier in Greek; really, it is!
Run along, you are now on ignore. Spittle to your heart’s content, but try to remain sane.
WHOO HOO!
Do I get a decoder ring? Where do we have our meetings? Are there dues? I hope we get interesting hats.
A demon-serving fool, dancing in public, is an amusement
Until he exposes his foolishness is to serve a devilish game
Such fools are best left to show their truly fallen nature
Without help from Christians
Did you use the decoder ring, little man?
O JESUS! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being loved, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being extolled, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being honored, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being praised, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being preferred to others, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being consulted, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the desire of being approved, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being humiliated, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being despised, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of suffering rebukes, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being calumniated, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being forgotten, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being ridiculed, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being wronged, Deliver me, JESUS.
From the fear of being suspected, Deliver me, JESUS.
That others may be loved more than I, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be esteemed more than I, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
That, in the opinion of the world, others may increase and I may decrease, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be chosen and I set aside, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be praised and I unnoticed, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be preferred to me in everything, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should, JESUS, grant me the grace to desire it.
I appreciate the illumination which your exposition here adds to the understanding of the roles of Mary and Joseph in completing prophesies foretelling and defining the coming of the Messiah.
My view of the "perpetual virginity" is that the hoopla is simply a marketing ploy, one of differentiating a product such that its purveyor, the RCC, can nominate itself as the only outlet for the distribution of supposed benefits to a select and profitable audience in a segmented market. This, of course, presumes that the Gospel of Christ is not freely available to all, but flows only through a channel of "grace" of which the RCC controls the "pinch points."
Any possessor of an MBA thoroughly understands both the context and the methodology of creating a market, uniquely defining the product, nominating oneself as the sole supplier, and branding its offering such that other suppliers will be seen as inferior in service and supply.
It instructive to examine one of the successful patented medicines, acetylsalicylic acid, was patented in 1900 by the German Bayer company, trademarked as "Aspirin" (now passed into the general vocabulary), and marketed as a wonder drug.
At the end of the First World War, the chemical was made generic, available for anyone to make and market. However, through a strong promotional effort, the name "Bayer Aspirin" and vaunted quality was so impressed on the public that for many years Bayer dominated that market segment.
In fact, my mother-in-law, trained as an RN in the 1920s, would accept no other brand of aspirin for her personal use, claiming that none but Bayer made a satisfactorily pure pharmaceutical product, no matter what reasoning she was offered that generic aspirin was much cheaper, and just as effective, even in the 1990s. Why? Because of the continuing persuasive SPAM, no matter how irrational, claimed superior benefits that kept her allegiance even to the grave.
You can argue all you want that from literal-historical hermeneutics a perpetually virgin Mary is nonsense, but you are going to find out that the RCC allegorical approach to the Mary paradigm has such a firm grasp on simony and so much SPAM that it is to Romanists therefore both an honorable and just ploy to cement customers to the brand such that they will never give it up and go back to true New Testament doctrine.
Besides, those Mary statuettes are so pretty that no religious home should be without them. And a Sallman's "Head of Christ." With a populated crucifix and candle beneath it. And a breviary with Rosary beads. Maybe a kneeler.
Dang!
It’s more pervasive than I’d thought!
John mentions 7 churches in Asia...
Worship is what you give your wife.
Adoration is what you give your mistress.
Your mistress probably won't complain; but I'd bet good money the wife would!!
VOTE TRUMP!
“Dang!
It’s more pervasive than I’d thought!”
:) We Greeks are everywhere!
“The Son of God became man, that we might become god” St. Athanasius the Great.
Take a look at De Incarnatione,
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.toc.html
Complete with Scriptural citations. You see, Christ’s Incarnation changed everything!
It is not. Your thesis is so juvenile that it does not even deserve a nod.
But for an audience which is interested in documentation, I have done an extensive study in the Greek, LXX and Koine, in the Latin Vulgate, in the Hebrew Masoretic, and in the English Unabridged Dictionary; as well as in Thayer's and Strong's Greek lexicons, Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, Vine's Expository dictionary, Roget's and Sisson's thesauri, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (the term "veneration" does not even exist in the five volumes), Young's Analytical Concordance (no venerate or veneration), as well as several commentaries.
There is no genuine Biblical term to identify with "venerate" or "veneration." The only terms use to describe bowing, kneeling, or prostrating oneself in homage are as follows:
*************
Definitions from Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1981)
[In the contexts below, a bracket of left (<) and right (>) carets set off a phrase illustrating an instance
of the word's particular usage.]
************
wor ship n [ME worschipe, worshipe, fr OE weorthscipe, fr weorth worthy + -scipe -ship -- more at WORTH]
1 a archaic : HONOR, REPUTE, CREDIT b archaic : DIGNITY, IMPORTANCE, RANK c sometimes esp chiefly British : a person of standing or importance -- used as a title or mode of address, esp for holders of high offices < his Worship the Sheriff >
2 : the reverence or veneration tendered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an
act, process, or instance of expressing such veneration by performing or takig part in religious exercises or ritual < all worship is an effort of the individual to realize . . . the real presence of the Divine --N. W. Comfort >
3 : a form or type of worship or religious practice with its creed and ritual < foreigners had been crowding to Rome, bringing with them their foreign cults, and she had prmitted these worships --John Buchan >
4 : respect, admiration, or devotionfoe an object of esteem < the worship of the machine --C. I. Glicksberg >
**********
wor ship vb worshiped or worshipped; worshiped or worshipped; worshiping or worshipping; worships [ME worschipen, worshipen, fr worschipe worship] vt
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power : VENERATE < the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are uncreated and are to be worshipped together as one God --K. S. Latourette > < the emperor . . . worshipped as a god, is to serve as an instrument --Vera M. Dean >
2 : to regard with respect, honor, or devotion : ADORE < in the Renaissance, men worshiped antiquity --Stephen Spender >
************
Hebrew:
Strong's Number H7812
שׁחה shâchâh shaw-khaw'
Strong's Definition:
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage
to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance,
do reverence, make to stoop, worship.
Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition:
1) to bow down
. . 1a) (Qal) to bow down
. . 1b) (Hiphil) to depress (figuratively)
. . 1c) (Hithpael)
. . . . 1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
. . . . . . 1c1a) before superior in homage
. . . . . . 1c1b) before God in worship
. . . . . . 1c1c) before false gods
. . . . . . 1c1d) before angel
Part of Speech: verb
=========
Aramaic (only eight instances, all in Daniel 3):
Strong's Number H5457
סגד
segid
seg-eed'
Strong's Definition:
(Chaldee); corresponding to H5456: - worship.
Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition:
1) to prostrate oneself, do homage, worship
. . 1a) (Peal) to do homage
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
=========
Greek:
Strong's Number G4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
Strong's Definition:
From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog
licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate
oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship. Thayer Definition:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
. . 3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
. . . . 3a1) to the Jewish high priests
. . . . 3a2) to God
. . . . 3a3) to Christ
. . . . 3a4) to heavenly beings
. . . . 3a5) to demons
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4314 and a probable derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand)
-----------
Strong's Number G4576
σέβομαι
sebomai
seb'-om-ahee
Strong's Definition:
Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to revere, that is, adore: - devout, religious, worship. Thayer Definition:
1) to revere, to worship
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice of an apparently primary verb
Used one occasion, recorded in two gospels:
"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips;
but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men" (Mt. 15:8-9; cf Mk. 7:7 AV).
------------
Strong's Number G1391
δόξα
doxa
dox'-ah
Strong's Definition:
From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively,
objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.
Thayer Definition:
1) opinion, judgment, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
. . 2a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3) splendour, brightness
. . 3a) of the moon, sun, stars
. . 3b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
. . 3c) majesty
. . . . 3c1) a thing belonging to God
. . . . 3c1) the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the
absolute perfection of the deity
. . . . 3c2) a thing belonging to Christ
. . . . . . 3c2a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
. . . . . . 3c2b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
. . . . 3c3) of the angels
. . . . . . 3c3a) as apparent in their exterior brightness
4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
. . 4a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
. . 4b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall
enter after their Saviour’s return from heaven
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G1380
Used only once, referring to table manners, not veneration, adoratiom, or bowing in homage.
----------------
Strong's Number G3000
λατρεύω
latreuō
lat-ryoo'-o
Strong's Definition:
From λάτρις latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), that is, render religious homage: - serve, do the service, worship (-per).
Thayer Definition:
1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
. . 2a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
. . 2b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
. . . . 2b1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from latris (a hired menial)
Used only twice:
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" (Acts 24:14 AV).
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Php. 3:3 AV).
*************
The only words in either the Old Testament or the New, which could be used for the act of lighting candles, or burning incense, and/or bowing/kneeling/prostrating in homage to Mary is defined in the English language solely as to worship, is it not?
Trying to excuse this attitude toward her (or worse yet, images purporting to be of her) by using the word "venerate" or "veneration" is only trying to walk away, in the face of direct challenges, that what is really going on is worship the is not authorized anywhere in the Old or New Testaments, and is in fact forbidden, in my estimation.
========
What "venerate" means, in the English dictionary, and in the Bible(s) is as follows:
Definitions from Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1981)
[In the contexts below, a bracket of left (<) and right (>) carets set off a phrase illustrating an instance
of the word's particular usage.]
************
ven er able adj [ME, fr L. venerabilis, fr L venerari to venerate + abilis -able]
1 : deserving to be venerated : worthy of honor and respect usu. by reason of
prolonged testing (as o character or in office) < a venerable judge > -- deacon of a church
of the Anglican Communion or a person recognized by Roman Catholics as having attained the
lowest of three degrees of sanctity
2 : made sacred by religious, historic, or other associations : meriting to be regarded with
awe and treated with reverence < the venerable walls of a church > < venerable relics of our
forefathers > < the venerable silence of the library --Ernst Krenck >
3 a : calling forth respect through age, character, and attainments < venerable sages > < a venerable leader >; broadly : conveying an impression of aged goodness and
benevolence < his ruddy features and snow-white hair gave him a venerable appearance >
b : impressive by reason of age < that venerable coat had sheltered
three generations >
4 : obs : showing or giving deep respect : REVERENTIAL
syn see OLD
*************
ven er ate vt [L. veneratus past participle of venrerari : to regard wih reverential respect or with admiration and deference as being hallowed
or as having nobility esp if accompanied with age : REVERE < we venerate noble parents >
< do not know of a man more to be venerated for uprighteousness of heart and loftiness of
spirit -- Sir Walter Scott >
syn see REVERE
**************
ven er a tion n [ME veneracion fr L veneration-, veneratio, fr veneratus (past participle of venerari) + -ion- -io -ion]
1 : a feeling of respect mingled with awe excited by the dignity, wisdom, or superiority of a
person, by sacredness of character, by consecrated state,, or by hallowed association < the
tremendous veneration in which art and artists have been held --Huntington Hartford >
< regarded their teachers and institutions with the deepest veneration >
2 a : the act of venerating esp by the expressing of deeply reverent feeling -- compare ADORATION
b : the act of admiring humbly and respectfully
3 : the condition of one that is venerated < hoping to obtain veneration from his subjects >
4 : the phrenologic faculty of reverence - venerational (adj)
************
ven er a tor n [L fr veneratus (past participle) + -or]
: one that venerates < a venerator of tradition >
*********note********
Exodus 39:29 (39:30 in the AV and LXX)
DRB : the plate of sacred veneration of the purest gold
AV : the plate of the holy crown of pure gold
Vulgate : lamminam sacrae venerationis de auro purissimo
Darby : the thin plate, the holy diadem, of pure gold
The LXX calls it an aphorism (no Strong's number/word),
αφορισμα
Looking this up in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, one can only conclude that this noun comes from the verb αφοραω which has the meaning to turn the eyes away from other things and fix them on something; cf. αποβλεπω (to look away from); figuratively, to turn one's mind to
*******
In English:
1 : a concise statement of a principle
2 : a terse formulation of a truth or sentiment : adage
Hebrew:
Strong's Number H6731
צץ ציץ
tsı̂yts tsits
tseets, tseets
From H6692; properly glistening, that is, a burnished plate; also a flower
(as bright colored); a wing (as gleaming in the air): - blossom, flower, plate, wing.
Brown, Driver, Briggs Definition:
1) flower, bloom
. . 1a) flower, bloom
. . 1b) shining thing (of gold plate on high priest’s mitre) (metaphorically)
2) feather, wing
. . 2a) meaning dubious
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6692
========
The only place the word veneration appears in the above Bibles is in the DRB, from the Vulgate, and it does not refer to speak of an attitude of regard toward a human or to a thing of this world. In no case does it ever, in English or in Scriptural matters, refer to burning a candle or incense, or of bowing, kneeling, or prostrating oneself in homage regarding any human being or natural or manufactured object or image.
The designation "veneration" by Romanism to conduct such exercises toward idolatrous images is a term misusing an action carried to the extreme so as to avoid using the only proper term describing such action, which would be to worship, IMHO.
According to the dictionary, Mary is of the lowest of three degrees of sancity, whatever that means in Romantic (pun) terms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think you need to find a deep, dark place to bury "venerate" as regarding the Bible or spiritual matters. There is only one object worthy of human veneration = worship, and that is the Jehovah Elohim of the Holy Scriptures.
Still can’t or won’t offer up the full Greek on the verbs??
>>(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche)
>>5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.<<
This false apparition is claiming that it can offer eternal life by recitation of the Rosary!!!
If that isn't surpassing Christ I don't know what is.
Forget the perpetual virginity....can any catholic defend this false teaching with the Word??
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