Posted on 01/01/2016 8:18:12 AM PST by NRx
“What do you suppose that is in reference to?”
To both the earthly and Heavenly temples.
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
Hebrews 8:5
[Levitical priests] who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
I never bowed toward, prayed toward, or offered incense to the American flag. I would oppose such acts even if the person doing so realizes the flag is just a national symbol. And on a similar note of equal relevancy, I wear pants.
“What makes an image an idol is when it is an image of a false god.”
So, as long as the image is of the true God, it is not an idol and impossible to be used in acts of idolatry? This thinking is foreign so the concept of what God says about idols that it is like trying to reason with someone who does not even speak the same language.
It appears to me that you, though very evasively, have answered that idolatry of images of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, etc. is impossible.
Why then did the apostles and angels strictly forbid and rebuke bowing down to them? Why would it not be okay to bow to the actual person but is okay to bow to an image that is supposedly like that person?
“And to answer you last question, if someone was sacrificing chickens before an icon, that would be idolatry. “
Chickens are forbidden sacrifices but not flowers or incense?
I doubt you could produce a single Biblical Commentary, published by a reputable publisher, that would deny that references to God sitting between the Cherubim are references to the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant.
Take 1 Samuel 4:4, for example: “So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from there the ark of the covenant of the Lord of hosts, who dwells between the cherubim. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.”
And then 1 Chronicles 13:6:
“And David and all Israel went up to Baalah, to Kirjath Jearim, which belonged to Judah, to bring up from there the ark of God the Lord, who dwells between the cherubim, where His name is proclaimed.”
See the pattern?
Flowers and incense are not sacrifices. They add to the beauty of the worship of the Church. Incense in particular is used to sense everything in the Church, including the people. Obviously, when the congregation is censed, this is not an indication that they are being worshiped as gods.
Actually, I provided an example of the idolatrous use of those images in Santeria. If you salute the flag, you are honoring it. Jehovah’s Witnesses say you are worshiping it. When you honor the flag by saluting it and pledging allegiance to it, are you honoring colored cloth, or the country that it represents?
And the Apostles and Angels rebuked people who bowed in worship to them, believing them to be gods, or God. Bowing to people is not, in and of itself worship... as you can see by reading this: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/prostration_heb.aspx Even the second commandment itself speaks of bowing and serving (latria) as two distinct things.
“God sitting between the Cherubim are references to the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant”
Yes, I am aware that God did meet man at the mercy seat. Are you aware that the mercy seat is a picture of the REAL place where God dwells? Are you aware that the Cherubim only represent real beings who are present at God’s real throne in Heaven?
Do you think that God comes down in His glory and meets people who set up religious icons to pray toward? I do not think He does this.
I can certainly get down on my knees anywhere and pray. There is nothing wrong with doing so. If it happens to be at a chair or sofa, I am not bowing or praying toward the chair or sofa even it is where I am facing. But when someone hangs a picture or sets up a statue and bows and prays toward it, it is committing an act specifically forbidden by God, no matter how well-meaning that person is. Advocating doing this is doing the works of Balaam.
What is so evil about this false doctrine is that people such as yourself not only do these acts but command others to do them against God’s commands. If someone merely did these things in secret, it would be an egregious error. Doing them openly is far worse. And forcing others into taking part in these abominations is wickedness that cries to Heaven for judgment. And that judgment will come. And those who have repeatedly hardened their hearts and stopped their ears to the truth will receive the greatest judgment.
“Are you aware that the mercy seat is a picture of the REAL place where God dwells?”
I recall our pastor talking about this, with the detailed instructions of what to make. “Basically - God was looking around the room in Heaven and telling them.”
“And the Apostles and Angels rebuked people who bowed in worship to them, believing them to be gods, or God. Bowing to people is not, in and of itself worship”
You may assert that this was the case in every instance, but it is not so indicated in the scriptures. So you are speculating that this was the case EVERY time it happened.
Further, while it may be possible to bow toward a person in a manner that is not idolatrous, the apostles and angels did not simply direct those bowing to be careful to avoid committing idolatry but “go ahead and bow as long as you are aware I am not God”. They simply forbade it.
And yet, in spite of these clear warnings, you cannot even bring yourself to acknowledge the possible danger of idolatry being committed with these present-day statues and pictures.
I am not against statues and images in general. But once people begin praying toward them, bowing toward them, burning incense to them, it is time for them to go.
As I said, I doubt you could produce a single Biblical Commentary, published by a reputable publisher, that would deny that references to God sitting between the Cherubim are references to the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant. And thus far, you have not been able to surprise me with anything to the contrary.
In Scripture, there are certain phrases that are associated with the Ark of the Covenant, and in Psalm 99, you find two of them, and several more references to worship in the earthly temple in Jerusalem, and so these cannot be so easily dismissed as references to heavenly realities, apart from their visible earthly manifestations.
And do you think Jews are engaging in idolatry when they bow and kiss the Torah before they read it? If not, why not? Do you not think it is possible that the Bible could be worshiped as an idol?
And yes, I do believe that the Grace of God is manifested in connection with icons, and relics of saints. This is quite Biblical too. People were healed by the shadow of St. Peter, or by clothes that they had touched. A man was raised from the dead when his body touched the bones of Elisha. It happens.
In the context of the people who attempted to worship St. Paul, they clearly believed him to be the incarnation of a pagan deity, and he corrected them.
In the case of the Angel in Revelation, the Angel again had to inform St. John that he was only a fellow servant.
When Abraham bowed to the people of Hebron, there was no rebuke, because he was not under any false impression that they were deities. He was simply showing them honor, which is what we do to holy things, such as the Book of the Gospels, and what Jews do to the Torah Scroll, or even to their prayer books.
Think, just for a moment about how stories could be told to the masses when virtually noone could read. Icons, pictures, stained glass and other visual aids were used. Pictorial stained glass windows in cathedrals were instrumental in passing the word of Christ to the people......how else?
then don't.....don't follow a man made sect, based on nothing instead of the true church which Jesus Himself founded.
Regardless, the apostles and angels did not merely correct the wrong thinking. They stopped the wrong act.
But your position, as best I can tell, is that it is not only okay to bow toward angels and apostles and their likenesses as long as it is not intended as worship... but oh yeah, it is impossible to have wrong intentions about these things because angels and the apostles and Mary were real and not false gods. Sorry, your logic is terribly fragile.
No they don't, pay attention.
Lots of drawings in the catacombs of the early church.
They stopped their behavior when it was motivated by erroneous belief, yes.
In the history of heresies, there was a sect that worshiped Angels, and believed that they had to be our intermediaries before God (i.e., we could have no communion directly with God, but only through the Angels). This was condemned both in the New Testament, and by the Church at local councils. And so, if they used images of these angels, this would be idolatry. You don’t encounter such things often, in Church history, but it is not entirely unheard of.
Huh?
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