Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivismâ€. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism†is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early churchâ€.
The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditionsâ€. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.
Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t.
Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.
The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.
C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary†in Christian prayer by several centuries.
Here's the text:
On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙÎΔΥÎΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ
Here it is set to music:
Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.
What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.
The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.â€
Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.
In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos†was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.
That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos†was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.
You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church†then Marian devotion had better be part of it!
It’s not about “smart” people. It’s all about people who spend their lifetimes seriously studying Christian theology and come to one unmistakable conclusion that have gone through great personal and difficult journeys. Sadly, ever since the plague if Protestantism we have thousands of contradictory heretical sects and this is because of low-information Christians. How else do you explain the rot of the Joel Osteens? the Mormons? The Jehovah’s Witnesses? and the vast army of fools who take upon themselves to interpret scripture.
Ahh, more protestant bashing. How common. Can you prove your implied rejection of what the poster wrote, or are you just parroting the mindset learned from the magicsteeringthem?
Plague of Protestantism? LOL, no arrogant disdain there! You are so very typical of the closed catholic mind. May God in His mercy have mercy upon your soul.
How would you call a Protestantism that has split into thousands of contradictory sects? If it cannot be the ONE truth and teaching of Christ isn’t this a plague?
Most Protestant pastors will tell you that when they went into the ministry that they got a call from God...Twenty years later some of these same guys get another call from God...Apparently God makes mistakes and tells them, whoops, I called you into the wrong church...I meant to call you into the Catholic church...
We are living in Satan's kingdom...You have to understand Satan...Satan and his minions don't hang around strip bars and Casinos...Satan is religious...Satan and his ministers hang out in churches across the land...And they've been doing it for a long, long time...
How long did you say your church has been around???
As I said, you will have to deal with it. I am not changing my thinking. Would you like to discuss Heaven and Hell? Now THAT, is truly important.
BTW, didn't you know that satan is at every church service, every mass?
“Most Protestant pastors will tell you that when they went into the ministry that they got a call from God”
That’s what David Koresh, Jim Jones, the pastors from the Moonies; Mormons; and Jehovah’s Witnesses also say!
Go tell that your eminent Lutheran and Evangelical theologians who converted to Catholicism and could no longer swim in the shallow waters of the rut of Protestantism and its multitude of heretical sects. At least they had the honesty and courage of their convictions when the truth became abundantly clear as it did for 11 centuries, before the plague of Luther, for all the saints and illustrious martyrs of the Catholic Church. Today Protestantism is for the Oprah mindset, the kind that flocks to the Joel Osteen and Billy Graham-type vapid rallies.
What is this One Truth???
And of course "until" doesn't mean until in Matthew 1:25.
Another non response wrapped in insults. I'll ask again. Why don't we have evidence from the multitudes of apostolic NT writings teaching without Mary's intercession their is no salvation.
For the record, I consider Matthew, Mark, Peter, Paul, Luke, John, James and Jude pre-eminent theologians. Yet they mention absolutely nothing about Mary's intercessory role in salvation.
Aliska, that was a very interesting read. I’m glad you posted it, even if you thought it was too long. I have very little comment on it because it many ways we agree.
One point I would touch on, in defense of my fellow evangelicals/Protestants. I don’t think we have any shortage of love for Mary, as for any person God has blessed so richly. What we react to (and I think I speak for most of us) is whatever seems to displace Christ as the Mediator of salvation. We have had it argued to us that we are not perceiving these actions toward Mary correctly, that what we think is worship, or reliance upon for salvation, directed at Mary, is more subtle that what our eyes and ears are telling us. But that doesn’t help us at all. From our point of view, saying down is up or black is white just doesn’t go anywhere. And so we come to an impasse. But not for lack of love to all the heroes of the faith, including Mary. That accusation against us is false, and I wish it could be avoided, but it does seem to come up often enough.
Anyway, thanks again for your response. I did enjoy it.
Peace,
SR
I must commend you on your attempts of obfuscation. You stated without Mary's intercession there is no salvation. I stated no such doctrine was mentioned by the apostles. I have to conclude you view the Holy Scriptures as incomplete.
You may want to lay off your examples above. Joseph Smith declared himself a prophet and elevated himself as a necessary intercessor. I can't find where he justifies such using the Bible so he offered a false gospel and made up his own BOM so he could declare his claims.
David Koresh too saw himself as an intercessor between God and man. He convinced his followers what he wrote was from God. Of course a quick examination of the Holy Bible shows us he too preached a false gospel.
Osteen, if you have not heard is taken to task almost daily here as preaching an incomplete gospel. Which means it is a false gospel. How do protestants and evangelicals point out his error. Yes the Holy Scriptures.
The JWs look to the Bible AND what comes out of the watchtower. They have added and subtracted from Holy Scriptures.
So I would be careful making claims the above groups or individuals are grouped with protestants and evangelicals...They are not. In fact all of the above either ignore Holy Scriptures, add to them or both. On this thread your arguments did a good job following their model.
This should reveal to you that protestants and evangelicals hold Holy Scriptures supreme in determining truth claims.
Don't forget another dude named Apollo C Quiboloy. He claims to be the anointed Son of God. What a lame this guy is. He is still alive, living in luxury, while many of the followers wonder where their next meal is coming from.
Koresh and Jim Jones are dead if you did not get the memo. Both cult leaders claimed to be necessary intercessors between God and man. So immediately Bible Christians know them to be false because the apostles taught differently in Holy Scriptures. Same for Joey Smith. He offered the BOM which is not Holy Scriptures.
So we "low information" types can see a wolf because we have God's Word. We don't blindly lead individuals and won't accept strange doctrines which were not taught by Christ and His apostles. Hope you grasp that now.
So we have to toss out your doctrine of "without Mary's intercession there is no salvation." Why? Because Christ and His apostles taught no such doctrine. You are the one with much to explain. Your statement claims the Holy Scriptures are incomplete in communicating God's plan of salvation which is through Jesus Christ and no other.
Claiming more than what is revealed by the Holy Spirit in God's Word is the same thing Koresh, Moon, Jones, Joseph Smith did...and what your arguments here claim.
Is Nancy Pelosi Catholic?
Better yet is Pope Francis Catholic?
Joe Biden?
The Lavender mafia?
Is Liberation theology Catholic?
Catholic charities?
Are charismatic Catholics, Catholic?
What about SSPX?
I have more.
Amen, you spoke for me too brother.
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